CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

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CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

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CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
………………………………..

Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
........................................................

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

………………………………....

Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
……………………………….............

(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
……………………………….................

Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
………………………………....................

(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
………………………………...................

(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

……………………………….................

(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #391

Post by PinSeeker »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:30 am [Replying to Wootah in post #389]
Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?
Good question.

Here is a good answer:
Hebrews 9:
9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.
10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, a he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.

12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining b eternal redemption.

13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.

14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
The Mosaic sacrificial system brought neither sanctification of the soul nor the fullness of God's peace into the inner life of the worshiper:
.
"For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God" (Hebrews 7:18-19)

"For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?" (Hebrews 10:1-2)
.
This is in contrast with the New Covenant...
.
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more" (Hebrews 8:10-12)

"how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God" (Hebrews 9:14)

"let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water" (Hebrews 10:22)

"For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14)

"since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect" (Hebrews 11:40)

"to the spirits of the righteous made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23).
.
...which is made in Christ's blood (1 Corinthians 11:25).

So, yes, there is a "good answer," as you said, but you are either missing it or purposely avoiding it. You're (perhaps inadvertently) taking that passage you quoted from Hebrews 9 totally out of the context in which the writer of Hebrews -- ultimately God Himself, by His Spirit -- purposefully and clearly has put it. It's not about us either "feeling sorta good about ourselves," or "really good about ourselves" (to put it a little facetiously, but that's what your "answer" implies), but about Jesus, Who, as we finally read in Hebrews 12:2, is the Author and Perfecter of our faith (which is itself the gift of God, as we are explicitly told in Ephesians 2:8). So the answer to Wootah's question is, none of the previous sacrifices to God were sufficient because none of the previous sacrifices were of or by God Himself, in the form of man (Philippians 2).

Grace and peace to all.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #392

Post by Eloi »

PinSeeker wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:55 pm (...) So, yes, there is a "good answer," as you said, but you are either missing it or purposely avoiding it. You're (perhaps inadvertently) taking that passage you quoted from Hebrews 9 totally out of the context in which the writer of Hebrews -- ultimately God Himself, by His Spirit -- purposefully and clearly has put it. It's not about us either "feeling sorta good about ourselves," or "really good about ourselves" (to put it a little facetiously, but that's what your "answer" implies), but about Jesus, Who, as we finally read in Hebrews 12:2, is the Author and Perfecter of our faith (which is itself the gift of God, as we are explicitly told in Ephesians 2:8). So the answer to Wootah's question is, none of the previous sacrifices to God were sufficient because none of the previous sacrifices were of or by God Himself, in the form of man (Philippians 2).

Grace and peace to all.
None of your biblical references supports what you are trying to say, that none of the previous sacrifices to God were sufficient because none of the previous sacrifices were of or by God Himself, in the form of man. That idea is a human invention.

Animal sacrifices were as perfect as a sacrifice can be to be offered to God. The point is NOT ONLY the perfection of the sacrifice, but the value to pay for what is intended to pay: a perfect human was enough to pay for what a perfect human lost, and THAT IS what the Bible teaches (Rom. 6:6-21) ... no other thing.

If the idea of God coming himself to pay for humans, being killed himself, is that awesome idea, answer or explanation about Jesus redemption, why is that? ... that in the whole Word of God there is NOT one mention of that idea?

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #393

Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:06 pm None of your biblical references supports what you are trying to say...
Such is your opinion. As expected.
Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:06 pm ...that none of the previous sacrifices to God were sufficient because none of the previous sacrifices were of or by God Himself, in the form of man. That idea is a human invention.
Not the case at all. He alone is worthy (Revelation 5:12).
Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:06 pm Animal sacrifices were as perfect as a sacrifice can be to be offered to God.
Animal sacrifices themselves were never the point, but rather God's Law, which required perfection, and no one could ever meet that standard except God Himself... in the form of man. This is exactly why Jesus came to fulfill every bit of the Law, as He Himself said (Matthew 5:17).
Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:06 pm The point is NOT ONLY the perfection of the sacrifice...
Again, it's not the sacrifice at all, in and of itself, but the perfect fulfillment of the Law, which could never be accomplished by anyone other that God Himself. He fulfilled His Law, in the person of Jesus, and that's why His sacrifice -- as opposed to any other type of sacrifice -- was sufficient to accomplish the redemption of mankind.
Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:06 pm ...a perfect human was enough to pay for what a perfect human lost, and THAT IS what the Bible teaches (Rom. 6:6-21) ... no other thing.
Right, but post-Fall, there has never been and will never be -- on this side of glory -- anything close to a perfect human except for the One Who was (and is) also God.
Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:06 pm If the idea of God coming himself to pay for humans, being killed himself, is that awesome idea, answer or explanation about Jesus redemption, why is that? ... that in the whole Word of God there is NOT one mention of that idea?
This, uh, "sentence"... or "question"... seems... very garbled. I'll answer it as I think I understand it: This is what the whole Bible is about. If the Bible can be summed up in one word, that word is 'redemption.' Jesus is our Redeemer. The whole Bible is about Him, as He Himself said on several occasions.

Grace and peace to you, Eloi.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #394

Post by Eloi »

This is what the Word of God teaches:

Rom. 6:6 For, indeed, while we were still weak, Christ died for ungodly men at the appointed time. 7 For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath. 10 For if when we were enemies we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more we will be saved by his life, now that we have become reconciled. 11 Not only that, but we are also rejoicing in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many! 16 Also, it is not the same with the free gift as with the way things worked through the one man who sinned. For the judgment after one trespass was condemnation, but the gift after many trespasses was a declaration of righteousness. 17 For if by the trespass of the one man death ruled as king through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one person, Jesus Christ!
18 So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous. 20 Now the Law came on the scene so that trespassing might increase. But where sin abounded, undeserved kindness abounded still more. 21 To what end? So that just as sin ruled as king with death, so also undeserved kindness might rule as king through righteousness leading to everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

God never dies. It would be impossible for God to die for anybody. Jesus, his Son, became human to die for us.

Hab. 1:12 Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.
O Jehovah, you appointed them to execute judgment;
My Rock, you established them for punishment.

Who would take a god who can die as his own Rock?

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #395

Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:01 pm This is what the Word of God teaches...
I know what the Word of God teaches. That's exactly what I'm conveying. You disagree. That's fine, right? We can agree to disagree, and both gracefully disengage.
Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:01 pm Who would take a god who can die as his own Rock?
Okay, and I say, who wouldn't take a God who manifest Himself as a man and paid the wages of sin, even death -- and on a tree, no less -- to accomplish the redemption and salvation of mere men with absolutely no merit of their own and fully deserving the exact opposite? Yes, grace is a wondrous thing indeed.

Grace and peace to you, Eloi.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #396

Post by Eloi »

PinSeeker wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:18 pm
Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:01 pm Who would take a god who can die as his own Rock?
Okay, and I say, who wouldn't take a God who manifest Himself as a man and paid the wages of sin, even death -- and on a tree, no less -- to accomplish the redemption and salvation of mere men with absolutely no merit of their own and fully deserving the exact opposite? Yes, grace is a wondrous thing indeed.

Grace and peace to you, Eloi.
And of course, you can reason the way you do ... but I was talking about Habakkuk and his way of reasoning. He called Jehovah as his Rock, and the reason he gave was precisely that He does not die. It sounds very logical to me: no one can call a Rock someone who dies, because how could someone protect someone else if that person can die?

Hab. 1:12 Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.
O Jehovah, you appointed them to execute judgment;
My Rock, you established them for punishment.

The Scripture says that it was a man who paid the ransom with his own blood, NOT God. Actually, it was the value of that blood that was presented in front of God as redemption. God has no blood; He is Spirit.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #397

Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:01 pm And of course, you can reason the way you do ... but I was talking about Habakkuk and his way of reasoning. He called Jehovah as his Rock, and the reason he gave was precisely that He does not die. It sounds very logical to me: no one can call a Rock someone who dies, because how could someone protect someone else if that person can die?

Hab. 1:12 Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.
O Jehovah, you appointed them to execute judgment;
My Rock, you established them for punishment.
Yes, I know Habakkuk very well, for sure. I also know that the NWT purposefully translates this verse wrongly as well, at least in one place. The correct literal translation is "we shall not die." The NWT translates this wrongly for the express purpose of being then able to deny that Jesus is God because of His physical death, obviously. But it mangles Habakkuk's context into something entirely different than what it is. It's yet another example of the NWT's attempts to corrupt the Scriptures to suit the Watchtower narrative. Just a quick look at an interlinear source like the Blue Letter Bible shows that every single translation renders the Hebrew מוּת (muwth) as "we shall not die" or "we will not die." At any rate, Habakkuk's context here is that he is obviously very aware of the threat of the Babylonian threat and then, in verses 6-11 God tells Habakkuk of the coming Babylonian invasion. Then in verse 12 and following, Habakkuk is acknowledging that God will sustain His people Israel ("we will not die"), but then questions why He is "idly looking at traitors and remaining silent when the wicked swallow up the righteous -- allowing the wicked to prosper -- and sending them as a judgment and using them to punish His people Israel."
Eloi wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:01 pm He called Jehovah as his Rock...
Yes, he certainly did, and Jesus calls Himself the Rock in Matthew 7:24 and 7:25, Matthew 16:18 (though Catholics will certainly disagree with this one), Luke 6:48. And Paul (Romans 9:33, Ephesians 2:20) and Peter (1 Peter 2:8) both acknowledge Jesus as the "rock of offense," the "stone of stumbling" (for unbelivers), the "stone that the builders rejected," and the "cornerstone," both harkening back purposely to Isaiah and his propecy of Christ, specifically 8:14 and 28:16.

ASIDE: I mean, it's sort of comical, really, in a dark way. The more one tries to escape it, the more one stumbles -- pun intended -- into it. It cannot be avoided. It kind of reminds me of Wile E. Coyote and his futile attempts to catch Roadrunner on the old Bugs Bunny cartoons... :D
Eloi wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:01 pm The Scripture says that it was a man who paid the ransom with his own blood, NOT God.
But it also says clearly that that man, Jesus, while fully God, had lain aside His status/nature as God and as one born of woman and tempted in every way as we are remained without sin -- which qualifies His status as mediator between God the Father and man -- and then bore God's wrath and judgment on our behalf, thereby redeeming us and reconciling us to the Father. The is the Gospel of Christ.
Eloi wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:01 pm Actually, it was the value of that blood that was presented in front of God as redemption.
Agreed; see immediately above. But the blood of someone who is/was mere man, would have been no value. God had to do it Himself, as per His own covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15, where He covenanted to die both if He failed to uphold it and if Abraham (and Abraham's descendants) failed to uphold it. Well, God always keeps every one of His promises, as you will agree. The latter is what happened; we have all failed. But God Himself -- just as He promised He would... covenanted He would -- paid the price on our behalf in the Person of Jesus Christ.
Eloi wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:01 pm God has no blood; He is Spirit.
God the Father. Sure. Absolutely. John 4:24.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #398

Post by 2timothy316 »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:53 am We now have about 368 posts on this topic and from my observation it appears that much of the opposing views stem from a failure to fully understand the true nature and corporeal character of the "Godhead".
It is my understanding that the trinity is a mystery that can't be understood by men. Or are you the first to get finally tell the world what the trinity is? Also are you talking about the Catholic trinity or Baptist or another one? I rarely meet two people that agree on exactly what the trinity is. For example, John 14:28 Jesus calls himself lesser than God. But that doesn't jive with the trinity doctrine. I have heard so many different explanations trying to reconcile this scripture into the trinity dogma yet rarely do two people agree on how to explain this contradiction. How can God be inferior in any way? if there is a single part of the Son, the Father or Holy Ghost that is not equal to the others, then it's not the trinity.

So if there is a 'failure to fully understand the true nature and corporeal character of the "Godhead"' It's the triniarian's own fault for not being able to clearly define this 'Godhead'. Which the very word is not Biblical but completely doctrinal yet triniarians know this but don't care. Most trinitarians don't even know that their doctrine changes oh every few hundred years. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trin ... story.html

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #399

Post by PinSeeker »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:53 am We now have about 368 posts on this topic and from my observation it appears that much of the opposing views stem from a failure to fully understand the true nature and corporeal character of the "Godhead".
I wouldn't call it a failure to understand, bur rather a refusal to believe.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm It is my understanding that the trinity is a mystery that can't be understood by men.
Well, but you're misunderstanding (purposely?) the intent of that statement. Really, it can be easily understood, and is. Now, fully grasped... that's another story. As individuals, we can't fully grasp being the same as another individual (let alone two other individuals) -- because we're not -- and we can't manifest ourselves in multiple ways. In other words, we can't truly experience it ourselves, so it remains a mystery how it can be. But we can understand it topically and at least to some extent conceptually, because God clearly says it.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm I rarely meet two people that agree on exactly what the trinity is.
Every believer in the triune Jehovah believes that the Godhead is made up by God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. There is no disagreement on that.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm For example, John 14:28 Jesus calls himself lesser than God. But that doesn't jive with the trinity doctrine. I have heard so many different explanations trying to reconcile this scripture into the trinity dogma yet rarely do two people agree on how to explain this contradiction.
But one can be "lesser" than another in different ways, can't he/she? Yes, he/she can. For example, I am lesser than my dad in age. But that doesn't make me a lesser person. I'm lesser than my dad in experience, but that doesn't make me "dumber" or even less influential than he. In a little more one-to-one correlation, my dad is greater than me in that he (and my mother) raised me and "sent me into the world, but I am still just as much a person as they are. Jesus is saying in John 14:28 that God the Father is greater in the sense that the Father is the one Who sends and commands, as Jesus clearly said in John 3:17 and 13:20.

So, the way in which Jehovah's witnesses are predisposed to understand what Jesus says in John 14:28 -- because, yes, Jehovah's Witnesses (and others) are applying their own context to what Jesus says there (as they do with so many other parts of Scripture) to "jive" with their own narrative -- is what doesn't jive with the trinity doctrine. There is no contradiction, except the one falsely contrived by Jehovah's Witnesses and others.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm How can God be inferior in any way?
God the Son is not inferior in any way to God the Father. Neither is God the Holy Spirit, nor is God the Holy Spirit inferior to God the Son. God the Father is only greater in the sense that He commands and sends, and He sends both God the Son and God the Holy Spirit -- successively -- into the world. See above. Jesus is very clear about this in John 13 and 14... really through John 17, as it's one long exposition given by Jesus Himself.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm ...if there is a single part of the Son, the Father or Holy Ghost that is not equal to the others, then it's not the trinity.
Agreed. But that's not the case.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm Which the very word is not Biblical but completely doctrinal yet triniarians know this but don't care.
No one disagrees that the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible. But that matters not, as God is clearly described as three distinct Persons. The word 'trinity' simply and merely -- yet profoundly and unmistakably -- conveys that God is One in three, and three in One, a Scriptural truth.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:56 pm Most trinitarians don't even know that their doctrine changes oh every few hundred years. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trin ... story.html
LOL! The introduction states:
.
"...no one clearly and fully asserted the doctrine of the Trinity as explained at the top of the main entry until around the end of the so-called Arian Controversy..."
.
Which is to say no one clearly and fully asserted it in a public manner -- believed it is a different thing altogether -- until around 380 A.D. And then finally, at the end of the document, it is stated that:
,
"(a)lthough unitarian and alternative views of the Trinity have repeatedly re-emerged in various Christian and quasi-Christian movements, the vast majority of Christians and Christian groups today at least in theory adhere to the authority of the Constantinopolitan and “Athanasian” creeds."

.
LOL! Grace and peace to you, 2timothy316.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #400

Post by Eloi »

There is NOT any triune Jehovah:

Code: Select all

1) Jesus was anointed by Jehovah:

Psalm 2:1 Why are the nations agitated
And the peoples muttering an empty thing?
 2 The kings of the earth take their stand
And high officials gather together as one
Against Jehovah and against his anointed one.

Acts 4:24 On hearing this, they raised their voices with one accord to God and said:
“Sovereign Lord, you are the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them, 25 and who said through holy spirit by the mouth of our forefather David, your servant: ‘Why did nations become agitated and peoples meditate on empty things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand and the rulers gathered together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one.’ 27 For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, 28 to do what your hand and counsel had determined beforehand to occur.

2) Jesus was the prophet "Moses-like" that Jehovah had promised:

Deut.18:14 “For these nations that you are dispossessing used to listen to those practicing magic and divination, but Jehovah your God has not allowed you to do anything like this. 15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Horʹeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.

Acts 3:18 But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer.
19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’

3) Jehovah sat Jesus Christ at His right hand when He raised him:

Psalm 110:1 Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

Ephes.1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him. 18 He has enlightened the eyes of your heart, so that you may know to what hope he called you, what glorious riches he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones, 19 and how surpassing the greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

4) Jehovah chose Jesus as High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek:

Psalm 110:4 Jehovah has sworn an oath, and he will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever
In the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek!”

Heb. 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in their behalf over the things relating to God, so that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal compassionately with the ignorant and erring ones, since he too is confronted with his own weakness, 3 and because of that he must make offerings for his own sins just as he does for those of the people.
4 A man does not take this honor of his own accord, but he receives it only when he is called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” 6 As he also says in another place, “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.”

5) Jesus is Jehovah's heir:

Psalm 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; he said to me: “ (...) 8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your possession."

Heb.1:1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

6) Jehovah declared Jesus Christ as His Son:

Psalm 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;
He said to me: “You are my son;
Today I have become your father. ... "

Heb. 5:5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” 
I don't know where some people get those ideas from. Obviously, NOT from Jesus (Mat. 22:35-37), and NOT from the Word of God (Deut. 6:4,5).

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