CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[Eloi]

[Replying to emilynghiem in post #338]
I don't think I reframed any verses. I have been explaining what I have learned from many people who believe in the Trinity. If you ask them....(1) Is Jesus God? they say YES. (2) Is the Father God? YES. (3) The Holy Spirit? YES. How many Gods is that? I count three. Polytheism. I believe in ONE God, the Father, whom Jesus called "the only true God" (John 17:3). True monotheism.


.

So when asked about the local football team.

Is James on the team? YES
Is Peter on the team? YES
Is Carlo on the team? YES

So you conclude there are three teams. How are you being rational?

Do Christians say: Jesus is a God and the Father is a God and The Spirit is a God? No, and you know that.

Personally I think the above shows that you make your position more difficult by not conceding basic ground. If you are going to argue and get it wrong there, why we would we trust you have some validity elsewhere?

God is not a team ... He is ONE person:

Deut. 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."

To verify the meaning of the phrase "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" in Deut. 6:4 we can use different methods. The linguistic is one of them:

In English like in many other languages we can use the words "a/an/one" to express collectives the same as in Hebrew, as in "a herd", "a family", "a couple" ... BUT the thing is that there is nothing special about it , because the same can be done with all the numerals: "two pairs", "three herds", "four clusters", etc. Trinitarians make a mistake when they want to particularize the Hebrew "ekjad", insinuating that it means "multitude", and that is not true ... as it can be understood very easily.

There are other ways to undestand Deut. 6:4. For example: what did the Jews understand out of Deut. 6:4? What did Jesus Christ understand of Deut. 6:4? How did the Hebrew speakers interpret it? Does it have anything to do with trinitarian juggling about a compound ekjad"? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

There is a third method to verify it: the Greek version of the OT used in the times when Jesus Christ was living as a human, the LXX. In Deut. 6:4 that version uses the Greek phrase: κυριος ο θεος ημων κυριος εις εστιν, where the word kyrios represents the name of Jehovah in Hebrew, and what I underlined is translated ONE IS. If in Hebrew the numeral ekjad had meant more than ONE ONLY, the LXX translators, who were Jews, would have used any other way to translate it instead of εις, which is the number ONE in Greek. That expression in Deut 6:4 (from the LXX) is used elsewhere in the NT as in Mark 12:29, 32; Rom. 3:30 and Gal. 3:20.

This matter of "ejad" as a multitude is a fictitious elaboration that some trinitarians have invented to give a trinitarian facade to the Jewish SHEMAH, which everyone knows very well that it is strictly monotheistic. Not even all Trinitarians who seriously study the Bible use that invention to speak of their belief in the Trinity, as they know that it is a fallacy that pains for the lack of rigor ... a fictitious justification based on an imaginary interpretation of Deut. 6:4, which has nothing to do with biblical reality.

[PinSeeker]

God is not a team ... He is ONE person...

You're purposely going beyond Wootah's point. God is a multiplicity of Persons, but that does not take away from the fact that He is One. He is -- Himself -- manifest in three distinct Persons.[/quote]

Grace and peace to all.

[myth-one.com]

God is not a team ... He is ONE person...

You're purposely going beyond Wootah's point. God is a multiplicity of Persons, but that does not take away from the fact that He is One. He is -- Himself -- manifest in three distinct Persons.

God is not a person or a multiplicity of persons.

Definition of person: a human being regarded as an individual.

God is a Spirit.

God is a Spirit:

A person is not a spirit -- by definition of person.

So God is not a person or human being.

He is a spiritual bodied being.

[Wootah]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #343]

So when you talk to a Spirit how would you address them?

A person doesn't have to be a human being.

Let's put it another way: why have two words, 'person' and 'human-being' at all according to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person

It's probably just a terminology issue for you?

[onewithhim]

Excellent arguments have been provided on this thread to show that God is one Person, not a trinity of Persons. I hope people passing through will go back and observe all of these arguments before accepting that God is three Persons. Jesus said that God is the Father ALONE. No one else is God. (John 17:3)

[Wootah]

Excellent arguments have been provided on this thread to show that God is one Person, not a trinity of Persons. I hope people passing through will go back and observe all of these arguments before accepting that God is three Persons. Jesus said that God is the Father ALONE. No one else is God. (John 17:3)

Which one did you like best? Let's debate it one on one?

[Revelations won]

Greetings,

The doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere mentioned in the Bible. However the doctrine of the God head is. We should also observe e that we should not confuse "one in unity" with "one in substance".

Many "believe" and accept the doctrine of "the Trinity as if it were actually "scripture".

Was this doctrine given by revelation to be confirmed as scripture?

If so who had authority to canonize this doctrine established about 300 years A.D. as scripture?

Is this alleged scripture therefore an addition to the Bible?

If this is the case, then why is it not added to the Bible?

Or is the doctrine of the "trinity" another authorized revealed book?

Why is this alleged doctrine so unexplainable?

Observe what God said in Genesis: Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:.

The forgoing statement from God clearly refutes the false concept of monotheism, since it speaks in the plural.

If the trinity were in fact correct doctrine, then would it not be absolutely absurd and unnecessary for God to foreordain himself as shown in:

Add to this the fact that Christ clearly existed even prior to the foundations of the earth were even created, for he verily was foreordained prior to the creation of this earth:

(Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:)

(1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,)

It is evident that in the New Testament that Christ clearly taught that we should worship God the Father.

It is also evident from the New Testament that Christ grew from grace to grace and received not a fulness at first, but though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect became the author of our salvation.

As clearly stated in John the Word of God was made flesh:

John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So according to the trinity doctrine it appears that God impregnated Mary so he could give birth to himself???? Can any0one explain this to my understanding??

Kind regards,
RW

[Wootah]

[Replying to Revelations won in post #347]

Add to this the fact that Christ clearly existed even prior to the foundations of the earth were even created, for he verily was foreordained prior to the creation of this earth:

Can you please describe the order of creation?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Revelations won in post #347]

I found many things in your post that I agree with. However, there is a wide-spread opinion concerning the scripture that you quoted about Jesus being chosen to die for our sins before the founding of the world---an opinion that it would be for our benefit if we examined it more closely. You said that Jesus was chosen "before the creation of the earth," or words to that effect. That's not what the scripture says. It is not the physical planet that is being referred to. It is the WORLD---the world of mankind alienated from God, that began after Adam sinned. It is the same "world" that the Apostle John speaks about at I John 2: 15-17.

So, Jesus was not destined to die before the creation of the earth. He never would've had to come here if Adam had remained faithful. Therefore, when Adam rebelled and lost his perfection, passing sin and death on to his children, that was when Jesus was assigned to come down here to pay the ransom for our lives.

[onewithhim]

1. "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalm 83:18)

2. "I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

3. "This means everlasting life, taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

4. "'I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17)


Let's reason on this. #1 says clearly that Jehovah alone is the Most High, or, God. #2 says that God is greater than Jesus Christ, because God is Christ's "head," or, ruler, if you will. Jesus is perfectly in line with that because he says (#3) that the Father, Jehovah, is the ONLY true God. Then #4, he says that he is returning to his Father and his God. After contemplating all of this, can't we say that it is obvious that Jesus is subservient to Jehovah, and Jesus is not "God"?

Some say that Jesus was God after he left the earth and returned to heaven. But remember that #2 (I Corinthians 11:3) was written after Jesus returned to heaven.