CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

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tigger2
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CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

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CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
………………………………..

Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

………………………………....

Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
……………………………….............

(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
……………………………….................

Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
………………………………....................

(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
………………………………...................

(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

……………………………….................

(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #411

Post by onewithhim »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:45 pm I look forward to any ideas on the subject of Jesus talking to himself when "praying," and, too, any reflection concerning post #406. I appreciate any cooperation. Thanks.

.
Is there anyone who would answer my question?

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #412

Post by onewithhim »

Well, I guess no one can wrap their heads around Jesus praying to himself. I can't either.

One thing cannot be ignored. It is as sure as the sun rises every morning, and that is that Jesus has done everything for his Father's glory. Even after his Millennial Reign he keeps his subservient position by giving back all rule to his Father, the Sovereign of the universe.

"Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when he does away with all sovereignty, authority and power. For he must reign, until 'he has put all his enemies under his feet.' And the last enemy to be destroyed will be death, for 'he has put all things under his feet.' But when he says all things are subject to him, undoubtedly He is excepted who has subjected all things to him. And when all things are made subject to him, then the Son himself will also be made subject to Him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all." (I Corinthians 15:24-28, Holy Trinity Edition of the Catholic Bible)

Jehovah, in the end, is the supreme Sovereign. Jesus will be the first to say this. He has elevated his Father, the Most High, through everything he said and did. He shuns the label of God that men have given him.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #413

Post by Avoice »

The trinity was necessary.

Christians have to believe that God is behind the scenes and approved of Jesus. Without that the church would fail.

Christians speak of a trinity BUT all that matters is Jesus. It's all about jesus. The church just uses Gods reputation but God is not who they obey. Even their holidays are about jesus.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #414

Post by onewithhim »

Avoice wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:25 pm The trinity was necessary.

Christians have to believe that God is behind the scenes and approved of Jesus. Without that the church would fail.

Christians speak of a trinity BUT all that matters is Jesus. It's all about jesus. The church just uses Gods reputation but God is not who they obey. Even their holidays are about jesus.
Please explain why the trinity was necessary. Why can't we accept that God is one individual who has a Son that is subservient to Him and yet the Son is the second highest Person in the universe? As I Corinthians 11:3 attests: "the head of Christ is God," meaning the Father is superior to the Son. Remember, Jesus says that God is his Father (John 17:3), not the Father AND himself. The Holy Spirit is not another Person but is the Force from God that acts similarly to the current in electric cords leading to a light bulb. It is how God accomplishes what He wishes to accomplish---God's active force.

We can believe that God is behind the scenes and approved of Jesus without thinking of them as a trinity or even equal. And it is a pity that self-proc laimed Christians ignore the Father and make Christ their God, when it is the Father that is the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV), and from Him comes all power and all life (I Corinthians 8:6).

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #415

Post by onewithhim »

I will enjoy Avoice's comment on the above post. Perhaps he hasn't noticed that I replied to his post.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #416

Post by onewithhim »

Avoice, please comment on my post 414. I appreciate it.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #417

Post by Revelations won »

To all posters on this topic,

Genesis 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”


Genesis 3: 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Matthew 3:17 “And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

(Please observe that Christ was on the earth and that the the voice from theFather was from Heaven)

Matthew 17:5 “While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”

(Please observe that on this occasion God the Father is again bearing testimony of his Son Jesus Christ. The Father is speaking from a bright cloud and Jesus is on the earth.)

Luke 3:22 “And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”

(Observe that Jesus in the following gives powerful testimony of the Father with profound details in John 5.)

John 5: 18 “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.”
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.”

Note: 3 Herein it should be so observed that Christ clearly testified that he can do nothing of himself, but will only do those things which he has seen his father do.

John 8: 18 “I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 I and my Father are one.

29 “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”

Note: We should herein observe that “the Father is greater than all”. Therefore the oneness spoken of is clearly a oneness of purpose or unity.

1 Peter 1:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


Matthew 3:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 26:

39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying,O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mark 1:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Luke 3:

21 Now when all the people were baptized*, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Luke 9:

7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.


I think we should look at the clear view of the “Godhead” as three separate and distinct personages, for example:

John17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

(Ask yourself this question: How could the Son bring any glory to the Father unless he indeed had divine power given to him before he was born in mortality?)

2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

(Also in verse 2 It is very clear that Christ testifies that God the Father had given him “power over all flesh”, including the power to give “eternal life”.)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You should also observe in verse 3 Christ made a very powerful statement regarding the necessity to “KNOW thee the only true God and Jesus Christ”. Observe that he did not say we must have a mere belief in God and Jesus Christ. The word knowledge implies a much deeper and certain witness of the character of each person in the “Godhead”. For example: consider the personal witness and testimony which Peter received regarding Christ which was received only by revelation from God the Father relating to Jesus Christ,s station and identity as the Son of God.

4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

We should so note that in verse 5 is a most powerful witness of Christ’s Divinity as he testifies that he also possessed “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” For it is clearly self evident that he was foreordained to this holy calling to be the savior and redeemer before the foundations of the world were even laid. This was also affirmed by Peter in the following:

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

I think the scriptures make it very clear that the scriptures make it very clear that the “oneness” of the Godhead is a “oneness of unity and purpose” and not an “incomprehensible” oneness of body and spirit.

If Christ was the Father as some claim, then why would he need to foreordain himself?


Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee


Why, as shown in the second psalm and Acts 13 why would God need to get Mary pregnant to have himself born again by Mary?



Luke 1-30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


I would also ask, how could he be the Son of the Highest and have any need to inherit all things?

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It is very clear in the New Testament that the worlds were made by Jesus Christ under the direction of God the Father.

In the Old Testament it is very clear that Jehovah made the worlds, therefore Jehovah and Jesus Christ are one and the same. Jehovah is therefore clearly not God the Father. If one can show otherwise from the scriptures please present your evidence. Opinions and theories are just that. So let’s hear it from the scriptures.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #418

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Revelations won in post #417]

I was following you until your last statement that Jesus and Jehovah are one and the SAME. You spent a good amount of space showing that they were NOT the same. Then you turned on your heel 180 degrees. I am done with this incomprehensible belief of yours and trying to discuss things on any kind of common ground. When we find common ground, you drop the other shoe, so to speak. You are operating on two vastly different ideas. Never the twain shall meet. I'm out.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #419

Post by PinSeeker »

Revelations won, I thought you and I were pretty close together in our understanding, but from the following it seems not. Perhaps I am mishearing you. The following are my comments to your summations:
Revelations won wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:03 am It is very clear in the New Testament that the worlds were made by Jesus Christ under the direction of God the Father.
Well, John is very clear that everything that was made was made through Christ [John 1:3], not by Him. So I would disagree with this statement of yours. God the Father spoke the universe into existence; everything came into existence through the Father's Word, which, as John also says, became flesh and dwelt among us [1:14].
Revelations won wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:03 am In the Old Testament it is very clear that Jehovah made the worlds, therefore Jehovah and Jesus Christ are one and the same.
I would agree with this, but because one's word cannot be separated from that person. Your word is yours, and it cannot be separated from you. My word is mine, and it cannot be separated from me. Likewise, God's -- YHVH's -- Word is His, and cannot be separated from Him. The Father's Word was made man (John 1), and Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God... took the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men... and... in human form (Philippians 2). So the Father and the Son are both Jehovah, different in Person but one in essence.
Revelations won wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:03 am Jehovah is therefore clearly not God the Father.
Yeah... disagree. God the Father is Jehovah. Christ Jesus is Jehovah. And the Holy Spirit/Ghost is also Jehovah. They are distinct in Person, but One in essence. Jehovah is triune -- at the same time One in three, and Three in one. The Son proceeds from the Father, as does the Spirit. They are all of the same essence, but distinct in Person, and each has His own purpose and is absolutely essential to bring about the chief end of the triune Jehovah Himself, the Father willing according to His good pleasure, the Son accomplishing (through and by His Work on the cross, according to the will of the Father), and the Spirit working in each of us (also according to the will of the Father). The Father is "greater" than the Son and the Spirit in position, not in person.
Revelations won wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:03 am If one can show otherwise from the scriptures please present your evidence.
Jesus Himself is very clear in John 14.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #420

Post by onewithhim »

The beautiful Word of God makes things very clear. Jesus couldn't have said it more clearly: He prayed to his Father and his God, Jehovah, and said, "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

Jesus himself worshipped Jehovah and always considered his Father's reputation and glory. (See John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12.)

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