The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #2

Post by Divine Insight »

Checkpoint wrote: 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Doesn't this fly in the face that no earthly humans are free of sin?

How could 144,000 be blameless if no man is sinless?

Surely if they have sinned at all they can hardly be called blameless.

According to the verse above these men never even so much as told a lie.
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Re: The 144,00

Post #3

Post by Witness2U »

Checkpoint wrote: A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.�
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
The "144,000" is a symbolic number like all the numbers are in the biblical prophecies. The 144,000 refers to the invisible spirit of man that lives forever, not the visible flesh of man that dies.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #4

Post by theStudent »

John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Jehovah's Witness take on it is that they are spiritual Israelites, spirit begotten born again Christians.

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Post #6

Post by tam »

May you have peace Checkpoint,

This is the understanding given to me,


The 144 000 are a literal number from literal (flesh and blood) Israel. That is why the 144 000 is listed with its numbers equally divided among the 12 (listed) tribes of Israel. Some may say, but the tribes are different than the original 12, and that is correct. But that is because of events that occurred in their history. One tribe lost its portion (Dan), Joseph received a double portion (hence Mannaseh receives a portion); etc.

The 12000 in each of the listed tribes in Revelation is a set number because God has reserved are remnant (Romans 11:4,5) for Himself, guaranteeing a place for natural Israel. Hence, this number is known because this number is set. (even though man has forgotten to a large degree these different tribes and so they are considered to be lost. But God would know where every drop of blood from Israel is in the world)

So these 144 000 are anointed (Christian).

But these ones are not the only ones who are anointed (Christian) and who belong to Christ. His Bride is made up of people from all over the world. Hence, John also saw a Great Crowd made up of EVERY tribe, nation, people, tongue; whose number is NOT known because that number is not SET. Anyone thirsting is invited to come (and to drink the water of Life: holy spirit given by Christ, the Life).

The Great Crowd, including the 144 000, are therefore all anointed, all before the throne of God, having all been given white robes (washed clean in the blood of the lamb).


So "Spiritual" Israel consists of all who have joined themselves TO the Holy One (Christ) and the Most Holy One (God) of Israel - from literal fleshly Israel (the natural branches) AS WELL AS from the gentiles (those who are not Israel in the flesh; the grafted IN branches)





Peace to you and to yours,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #7

Post by Witness2U »

[Replying to post 6 by tam]

Most people who read the Bible are not born of God yet. They think all the numbers written in the Bible are literal numbers and that's why they come up with the wildest end time predictions I've ever heard.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #8

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Jehovah's Witness take on it is that they are spiritual Israelites, spirit begotten born again Christians.

JW
Yes, but why when they take the total number literally?

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Re: The 144,00

Post #9

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 3 by Witness2U]
The "144,000" is a symbolic number like all the numbers are in the biblical prophecies.
They are?

Why have you drawn that conclusion?
The 144,000 refers to the invisible spirit of man that lives forever, not the visible flesh of man that dies.
It does?

How come?

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Re: The 144,00

Post #10

Post by marco »


Goodness gracious! Is this a serious discussion on a number, 144,000? It was hard to read the advert provided without breaking into laughter, but I think I managed, honourably.

Take this quotation:

" the phrase “those who were sealed� refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth"

Is rule the right word? There are no other beings over whom to rule but I suppose sovereignty over grass and trees can be called ruling. What has poor Jesus become but a gardener?

Obviously, the number 144 with three zeroes added is a dramatic invention. It would be stretching generosity too far to concede that it might be figurative (unless one were fond of puns).

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