The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The 144,000

Post #151

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:13 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:44 amAccording to Jehovah's Witnesses, John, in his revelation at Patmos -- given to him by God -- was dreaming of precisely 144,000 individuals....
No John was given visions (on the Island of Patmos) of many, many other individuals.... He saw many more than just 144,000 individuals. For example he saw a vision of YHWH (Jehovah) Himself, Jesus the Lamb, the myriade of angels... he saw fearsome beast, the Great Harlot, armies and kings chreubs and demons. So no, we do not believe that {To quote you } "John, in his revelation at Patmos [...] was dreaming of precisely 144,000 individuals"
<chuckle> Well... sure, John "saw" many things. Sure. But you're avoiding the specific one at hand, and thus the question... entirely. My post is clear, and my question to you is clear.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:16 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:44 amAccording to Jehovah's Witnesses.... 144,000 individuals are the only ones actually sealed.
That is true.
Yes, I know that's what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. So again, couple that with what Paul says about the sealed in Ephesians and describe how Jehovah's Witnesses reconcile that with what John writes in Revelation 7.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:16 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:44 amThat seems terribly inconsistent to me.
Why?
My post above was very clear. Read it again and address it, rather than avoiding it altogether, as you have here.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:16 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:44 am because ... well, it just is.
And you think that is a good enough argument do you? "It just is" . I do not.
Again, not merely "it just is..."; that's disingenuous at best, JW, and you know it.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:16 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:44 am The question is, how do Jehovah's Witnesses resolve that disparateness?
What "disparateness" are you refering to?
LOL! Okay so to be totally explicit (as if it wasn't explicit before now), Paul's sealed (borrowing from God's language to Abraham in Genesis) number as the stars of the heavens... a much, much, MUCH greater group than a mere 144,000 individuals, so great that no one can even count, while John's sealed according to Jehovah's Witnesses woodenly and literalistically number 144,000 individuals. THAT disparateness. Given that both Paul (in Ephesians 1 and 4) and John (in Revelation 7) are talking about the same group of people, which they are; the margin notes in your New World Translation (NWT) correctly make that connection. An uncountable multitude (and, I agree, of every tongue, tribe, and nation) versus literally 144,000. That's a great disparateness. Yeah, that one. :)
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:16 pm It wasn't clear from your preamble.
Yes, it most certainly was. Read it again.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Re:

Post #152

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:06 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:18 pm
tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 89 by tam]

I couldn't glean an answer to my question from what you posted. If as it is clear the "sheep" are righteous and they are subjects of the kingdom. And the "meek" are also righteous they are reigning over the sheep, wouldn't that make two groups of righteous?

I think it is because your question focuses upon righteousness, and it is Christ who is the Righteous One. Those who belong to Him are covered by Him, so that there is no judgment for them, their sins are forgiven, and He trains them up. The sheep also have a covering: one that grants them entrance into the Kingdom: love, which is made manifest in their deeds, and as we know "love covers over a multitude of sins."




But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.


If you have a specific point to your questioning regarding the meek, then you might have to spell it out more for me.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say before that there are not two groups of Christians? Or is my memory failing me?
Peace to you onewithhim. Your memory is not failing you : )


I also did not say in this post that there are two groups of Christians.

There are two groups of people who enter into the Kingdom:

One group would be Christians (who reign as kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years).

The second group would be non-Christians (who enter as subjects of the Kingdom).



Peace again to you!
Please explain how non-Christians can be subjects of God's Kingdom. To be subjects, wouldn't the people have to be living according to God's requirements for eternal life? (John 3:16)

.

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Re: Re:

Post #153

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:02 pm
tam wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:06 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:18 pm
tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 89 by tam]

I couldn't glean an answer to my question from what you posted. If as it is clear the "sheep" are righteous and they are subjects of the kingdom. And the "meek" are also righteous they are reigning over the sheep, wouldn't that make two groups of righteous?

I think it is because your question focuses upon righteousness, and it is Christ who is the Righteous One. Those who belong to Him are covered by Him, so that there is no judgment for them, their sins are forgiven, and He trains them up. The sheep also have a covering: one that grants them entrance into the Kingdom: love, which is made manifest in their deeds, and as we know "love covers over a multitude of sins."




But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.


If you have a specific point to your questioning regarding the meek, then you might have to spell it out more for me.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say before that there are not two groups of Christians? Or is my memory failing me?
Peace to you onewithhim. Your memory is not failing you : )


I also did not say in this post that there are two groups of Christians.

There are two groups of people who enter into the Kingdom:

One group would be Christians (who reign as kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years).

The second group would be non-Christians (who enter as subjects of the Kingdom).



Peace again to you!
Please explain how non-Christians can be subjects of God's Kingdom. To be subjects, wouldn't the people have to be living according to God's requirements for eternal life? (John 3:16)

.

Christians are those who are anointed with holy spirit. That anointing - that baptism - is what makes them Christian (an anointed one). ALL Christians reign with Christ as kings and priests in His Kingdom (for a thousand years).


That being said, I am not sure I understand your objection (if indeed you are objecting). I thought you believed that non-Christians also enter into the Kingdom during the thousand years. Wouldn't that make them subjects of the Kingdom?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Re:

Post #154

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:16 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:02 pm
tam wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:06 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:18 pm
tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 89 by tam]

I couldn't glean an answer to my question from what you posted. If as it is clear the "sheep" are righteous and they are subjects of the kingdom. And the "meek" are also righteous they are reigning over the sheep, wouldn't that make two groups of righteous?

I think it is because your question focuses upon righteousness, and it is Christ who is the Righteous One. Those who belong to Him are covered by Him, so that there is no judgment for them, their sins are forgiven, and He trains them up. The sheep also have a covering: one that grants them entrance into the Kingdom: love, which is made manifest in their deeds, and as we know "love covers over a multitude of sins."




But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.


If you have a specific point to your questioning regarding the meek, then you might have to spell it out more for me.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say before that there are not two groups of Christians? Or is my memory failing me?
Peace to you onewithhim. Your memory is not failing you : )


I also did not say in this post that there are two groups of Christians.

There are two groups of people who enter into the Kingdom:

One group would be Christians (who reign as kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years).

The second group would be non-Christians (who enter as subjects of the Kingdom).



Peace again to you!
Please explain how non-Christians can be subjects of God's Kingdom. To be subjects, wouldn't the people have to be living according to God's requirements for eternal life? (John 3:16)

.

Christians are those who are anointed with holy spirit. That anointing - that baptism - is what makes them Christian (an anointed one). ALL Christians reign with Christ as kings and priests in His Kingdom (for a thousand years).


That being said, I am not sure I understand your objection (if indeed you are objecting). I thought you believed that non-Christians also enter into the Kingdom during the thousand years. Wouldn't that make them subjects of the Kingdom?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
OK, you and I will continue to disagree concerning the baptism with holy spirit on some, or, all Christians. But besides that, isn't our focus on life after the Millennial Reign? Jesus' thousand-years reign is getting people and the planet prepared for eternal life. People who have been resurrected (and many who are not righteous but survive Armageddon) need to be instructed concerning the truth about God and His Sovereignty. They must make up their minds during the M.R. about their standing with Jehovah. After Satan is let loose for the last time, people will make up their minds. Then whoever is left, on Jehovah's side, will be able to live forever in peace. That is when we start talking about the righteousness of people on Earth. They will all be Christians, having stuck with Jesus and Jehovah through Satan's last attempt at dragging down people with him.

.

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Re: Re:

Post #155

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:06 pm
tam wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:16 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:02 pm
tam wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:06 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:18 pm
tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 89 by tam]

I couldn't glean an answer to my question from what you posted. If as it is clear the "sheep" are righteous and they are subjects of the kingdom. And the "meek" are also righteous they are reigning over the sheep, wouldn't that make two groups of righteous?

I think it is because your question focuses upon righteousness, and it is Christ who is the Righteous One. Those who belong to Him are covered by Him, so that there is no judgment for them, their sins are forgiven, and He trains them up. The sheep also have a covering: one that grants them entrance into the Kingdom: love, which is made manifest in their deeds, and as we know "love covers over a multitude of sins."




But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.


If you have a specific point to your questioning regarding the meek, then you might have to spell it out more for me.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say before that there are not two groups of Christians? Or is my memory failing me?
Peace to you onewithhim. Your memory is not failing you : )


I also did not say in this post that there are two groups of Christians.

There are two groups of people who enter into the Kingdom:

One group would be Christians (who reign as kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years).

The second group would be non-Christians (who enter as subjects of the Kingdom).



Peace again to you!
Please explain how non-Christians can be subjects of God's Kingdom. To be subjects, wouldn't the people have to be living according to God's requirements for eternal life? (John 3:16)

.

Christians are those who are anointed with holy spirit. That anointing - that baptism - is what makes them Christian (an anointed one). ALL Christians reign with Christ as kings and priests in His Kingdom (for a thousand years).


That being said, I am not sure I understand your objection (if indeed you are objecting). I thought you believed that non-Christians also enter into the Kingdom during the thousand years. Wouldn't that make them subjects of the Kingdom?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
OK, you and I will continue to disagree concerning the baptism with holy spirit on some, or, all Christians.
Ok. (Here is a link to a summary of some of that conversation (with jw). I only found it because jw had quoted something of mine on that thread, and it was right around this post. I'm not sure if we discussed it elsewhere. viewtopic.php?p=1005755#p1005755 )

I did not glean an answer from your post to the question I asked though:

I thought you believed that non-Christians also enter into the Kingdom during the thousand years. Wouldn't that make them subjects of the Kingdom?

But besides that, isn't our focus on life after the Millennial Reign?


Do you mean the focus of this conversation?

If so, then no, as explained below.
Jesus' thousand-years reign is getting people and the planet prepared for eternal life.


Look at the parable of the sheep and goats again:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


Notice that the sheep on His right are declared to be the righteous, and they are told to take their inheritance.

Then, at the end of the parable, Christ summarizes:

“Then they (the goats) will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Those invited into the Kingdom (beginning at the start of the thousand years) are these righteous ones who receive eternal life.

People who have been resurrected (and many who are not righteous but survive Armageddon) need to be instructed concerning the truth about God and His Sovereignty.


Well, the truth about God and His Sovereignty will be clear for all to see, because Christ (the Truth) will have returned. And the second resurrection, the resurrection of the dead, does not occur until the end of thousand years (Rev 20:5, 11-15).
They must make up their minds during the M.R. about their standing with Jehovah.


According to Christ in the parable of the sheep and the goats, the sheep are already declared righteous and invited into the Kingdom as subjects of that Kingdom. I know of no such teaching that you have stated here from Christ or the apostles or in what is written.
After Satan is let loose for the last time, people will make up their minds. Then whoever is left, on Jehovah's side, will be able to live forever in peace. That is when we start talking about the righteousness of people on Earth.
But that cannot be true. Because again, the sheep invited into the Kingdom are declared righteous then and there at the start of the thousand years. Not at the end of the thousand years.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Re:

Post #156

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to tam in post #155]
But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.
Hello, Tam.

Oh?

Perhaps you can demonstrate those two groups from the N.T.

If so, please do that!

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: The 144,000

Post #157

Post by Revelations won »

Dear JW,


Post #145
Post
by JehovahsWitness » Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:22 am
Revelations won wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:46 pm
Greetings,

I have a few questions for clarification to ask of JW.

Who are the 144,000?
ANSWER They are the people chosen to rule with Jesus in heaven in God's government (God's Kingdom/the kingdom of the Heavens) Rev 20:6

My response: I quote from Revelation 20:
6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 Makes no mention whatever regarding this verse applying to the 144,000. Your response appears to be a private JW interpretation adding to this verse.


Revelations won wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:46 pm
What nationality are they?
ANSWER Every nationality - Rev 5:9



My response to JW:

Revelation 5:

9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

JW, you quoted revelation 5:9 and I put verses 9 ands 10 in response to your answer. It is very clear that these verses do not apply to the 144,00 for verse 10 makes it very clear that these 24 elders shall reign ON THE EARTH. You have claimed that the 144,000 are to rule in heaven. So you contradict yourself.



Revelations won wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:46 pm
How are they selected?
ANSWER By means of God's holy spirit - Rom 8: 15

My response:

Romans 8:

14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Again this verse you quote is not stated to apply only to the 144,000. I have quoted the previous verse to the one you quoted and the following verses. Paul makes it very clear that “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” In the following verses Paul also makes it very clear that we are the children of God

“And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
Paul in no way herein limits these promised blessings to only the 144,000.


Revelations won wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:46 pm
I believe is was you who said they were sealed.?
ANSWER Probably - Rev 7:3

My response to JW:

You claim this “kingdom was established in 1914” yet you “Probably” think that the 144,00 were sealed? In other words you really do not know.

Also since you claim that revelation ceased with John the Beloved, then it is self evident that you cannot know that the kingdom of god was established in heaven in 1914.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: The 144,000

Post #158

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:02 am
My response to JW:

you quoted revelation 5:9 and I put verses 9 ands 10 in response to your answer. It is very clear that these verses do not apply to the 144,00 for verse 10 makes it very clear that these 24 elders shall reign ON THE EARTH.

REVELATION 5 v "EPI" : ON or OVER?

Darby Bible Translation
and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.
Weymouth New Testament
And hast formed them into a Kingdom to be priests to our God, And they reign over the earth."
The Greek word translated in many bibles as "on/ upon" can also be translated as OVER. For example the same Word EPI is translated as "over" in several bibles including the ASV
MATTHEW 2:22 - American Standard Version

But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over [ EPI ]Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither; and being warned of God in a dream, he withdrew into the parts of Galilee,


Image






JW



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HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Re:

Post #159

Post by tam »

Peace to you!
Checkpoint wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:30 am [Replying to tam in post #155]
But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.
Hello, Tam.

Oh?

Perhaps you can demonstrate those two groups from the N.T.

If so, please do that!

Grace and peace to you.
Okay, well, we all know about this one group who reigns with Christ in His Kingdom for a thousand years:
yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years)
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Rev 20:6

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 20:4

Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.” Rev 5:8-10


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:16, 17


So all who are in Christ are those who take part in the first resurrection, and these are the ones who will reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom, for the thousand years. These are His brothers, the Bride, the New Jerusalem, the Church.
the other group enters as subjects

But there are more people in this world than just Christians (who are few). Some of these ones also enter into the Kingdom. Not as those who reign as kings and priests with Christ, but as subjects of the Kingdom.

For example, the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable. Christ speaks of what these ones have done for even a least one of His brothers, unaware that they had done anything for Christ. But as He says, "Whatever you did for even a least one of these brothers of mine, you did for me." These sheep are not invited into the Kingdom based upon their belief or upon their faith, but rather, these ones are invited into the Kingdom based upon what they have (unknowingly) done for Christ. He even calls them righteous, in the parable.

See also Mark 9:41

Paul also bears witness to such ones:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when people of the nations, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2:14-16

People of the nations who do NATURALLY the things required by the law (which law is LOVE).



Christians reign with Christ (for the thousand years). But non-Christians are invited to enter into the Kingdom also. They would not reign as kings and priests, but they would be subjects in that Kingdom.


I'm going to copy part of a post in a second, just in case that layout is more clear.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Re:

Post #160

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

From a previous post:
[Replying to tam in post #159]

... more than just Christians enter into the Kingdom.

We can see this in the sheep and the goats parable, where the sheep the goats are neither of them Christian, but the sheep are still invited into the Kingdom:

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left."

Christians, on the other hand, are taken up. When Christ returns, He gathers up those who belong to Him - His Bride.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1Thessalonians 4:16,17

Christ Himself said, speaking of His return:

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."


Back to the parable:

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?"

The King will reply, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."



1 - The sheep are invited in on the basis of what they did to Christ's brothers. (not knowingly, for gain, but unknowingly - because they had to ask when they did good to Him, and a Christian would know that by doing good to His brothers, they are doing good to Him - even if just from reading this parable)

2 - People have objected to this understanding because the sheep are called righteous, and they think that only those who believe in Christ and God can be righteous. But this is untrue. There is a second witness to those people who will be called righteous based on what they DO.

Paul writes,

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through [Jesus] Christ, as my gospel declares."


It is the law of love that these sheep have written upon their hearts, and they do naturally the requirements of that law, and that is why they have also done good to even the least of Christ's brothers. Because they do that good - out of love - to ALL people.



They are not in Christ - so they do not rule as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom. But they are in love, have love as a covering, and they are also declared righteous, and invited into the Kingdom.


*****


As for Christians:

Christ gathers all of those who belong to Him - His Bride - to rule as kings and priests with Him for a thousand years in His Kingdom. Christians sit down upon thrones with Him.

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Revelation 5:10

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. Revelation 3:21

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6


The simplest question to ask here is if all Christians (not all who call themselves Christians are Christians) are kings and priests of the Kingdom, then who are the subjects of that Kingdom?
viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804



Peace again to you!

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