The 144,000

[Checkpoint]

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?

Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

[tam]

[quote="tam"



So let me ask you some questions:

Where do you say the goats will be living?

How will the goats die?

How will they be cast out of the Kingdom?

Is there death in the Kingdom?

Who comes against the people ON THE EARTH at the end of the thousand years, if indeed the wicked/goats are not also living on the earth?

And if they are living on the earth, according to your interpretation, how are they not living side by side with the meek? How are THEY kept separate from the meek?

ONEWITHHIM RESPONDS:

It doesn't do much for a viable discussion to answer your questions (though I and other JWs have done so) because you won't answer ours. But I will once again answer your questions above.

Again, if there is a question on this thread in this discussion that I have not responded TO, please point it out.

(1) Where will the goats be living? Answer: The goats are the wicked people that are separated from the good people (the sheep) just before Armageddon. Jesus said that the "goats" would be destroyed, as if cast into a fire (Matthew 25:41).

Depart from me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

"These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life." (v.46) This destruction of the wicked is called Armageddon. I asked you before if bad people are allowed to live under Christ's Millennial Rule, then what is Armageddon for? And I got no answer.

You did get an answer. Post 115.

You asked:

(1) If there will be people on the earth, during the Thousand-Year Reign, outside of the Kingdom that are not followers of Christ, but actually wicked, then tell me---what is Armageddon for? Who, exactly, is destroyed at Armageddon?


You were answered:

**
Are people not part of "gog and magog"? Does the wts not teach that these people are in the Kingdom during the thousand years - but at the end of the thousand years, they ride across the earth to destroy the people God loves? And are these not the ones that are devoured by fire from heaven? The war that God fights on behalf of the people He loves?


The separation of the sheep and the goats occurs when Christ returns. I think we agree upon that. We may disagree upon who the sheep and the goats ARE, but we do agree (I think) that the sheep enter into the Kingdom (and if you accept that the sheep are people who are on the earth, then you MUST accept that the Kingdom is also established upon the earth)


So the separating of the sheep and the goats begins at the start of the thousand years.

Armageddon (the great war of God) occurs at the end of the thousand years (against gog and magog). Because that is the war that God fights, on behalf of His people. (fire devours them from heaven)

**

So... in case that was not clear, the direct answer to your question is: 'gog and magog' are destroyed at Armageddon.

(2) How will the goats die? Answer: By the hand of Jesus when he comes at Armageddon, depicted at Revelation 19: 11-21.

He most definitely does not kill anyone. He is the LIFE. The sword that comes out of His mouth is TRUTH. He makes war with truth and justice.

(3) How will they be cast out of the Kingdom? Answer: They will never have been IN the Kingdom. They will have been executed before Jesus starts his Thousand-Year Reign over the earth.

Okay. I can't accept that they are executed, but I can certainly accept that they are not in the Kingdom.

(4) Is there death in the Kingdom? Answer: The Bible says that after the thousand years, there will be a re-surging of Satan to try and bring down people with him. There will be many who choose to follow him. They will all then be destroyed, as if being burned in fire (Revelation 20: 7-10). (The word "tormented" is taken from a word meaning "jailed" or "a condition of RESTRAINT." Satan's and the ones who follow him's destruction will be an excellent way of restraining them from doing any more harm. All evil ones will be annihilated forever.

I'm not sure that answered the question.

Where does this occur? Inside or outside the Kingdom?

If there is no outside the Kingdom on the earth, and people (on the earth) who follow Satan are destroyed, then is there death inside the Kingdom? Rebellion inside the Kingdom?

(5) Who comes against the people on the earth at the end of the thousand years, if indeed the wicked/goats are not also living on the earth? Answer: None of the people on the earth, at the end of the thousand years, are "goats." The goats will have already been obliterated. The people who choose to go with Satan are either those that started out as sheep but, during the Millennium, changed their minds and decided to go with Satan, AND/OR are people born during the Millennial Reign. All the people will still have free will, and will be able to change their minds, or pursue an evil course, though others might not see it. Don't you agree? The Scriptures say that "fire came down from heaven and devoured them" (Revelation 20:9), so their destruction comes from heaven where Jehovah and Jesus are.

These ones that turn against Jehovah and Jesus and decide to go with Satan will somehow have learned to disguise their traitorous treachery while living alongside faithful ones. The Bible doesn't say how they do this, but it's obvious that they will have gotten away with it right up to the end. (It stands to reason that they would be careful not to expose themselves until the end.) Certainly if anyone exhibited signs of being a traitor, they would not be allowed to hurt loyal people.

Okay, so according to your theology, it seems:

a) there are bad/wicked people in the Kingdom, living alongside the faithful ones.

(As some of you have asked me: How is that different from life right now?)

b) these bad/wicked people are somehow able to hide their true selves from Christ and God.

(God who sees the heart? Even if a wicked person managed to fool a co-rule with Christ, how is that person going to also fool Christ and God - who sees the heart?)

c) there is death in the Kingdom


d) even if one enters the Kingdom (as a sheep), this is not reflective on who they truly are because they might yet become wicked - so I must imagine that there is also FEAR in this Kingdom


**

Now, do you care to answer my questions (that I've asked for many days)?

Which ones have I not answered?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 129 by tam]

It would be so easy to just answer those questions (which you HAVE NOT answered), seeing as I have asked you at least half a dozen times.

But you dodge answering them by saying either that "this is the wrong thread" or "I already answered them," which you have not.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 130 by tam]

I see now, after carefully reading your last few posts, that one reason you are so confused and contradictory is that you believe that Armageddon occurs AFTER the Millennial Reign! Very interesting. I haven't heard that one before. But Jesus speaks to just you, am I right?

After examining the Scriptures, it seems to me that Armageddon occurs when Jesus and his heavenly hosts come against the kings of the earth and their armies, in Revelation chapter 19. (Armageddon is mentioned in chapter 16, and refers to the kings of the earth, the battle with which is pinpointed in chapter 19.) This looks like Armageddon is quite a bit ahead of chapter 20 and verses 7-10, which describes the end of the thousand years.

But, be that as it may, your source outweighs the Scripture, as you have made clear before.

[tam]

[Replying to post 130 by tam]

I see now, after carefully reading your last few posts, that one reason you are so confused and contradictory is that you believe that Armageddon occurs AFTER the Millennial Reign!

Well, one of us is confused, at least.

Very interesting. I haven't heard that one before. But Jesus speaks to just you, am I right?

You are wrong.

After examining the Scriptures, it seems to me that Armageddon occurs when Jesus and his heavenly hosts come against the kings of the earth and their armies, in Revelation chapter 19. (Armageddon is mentioned in chapter 16, and refers to the kings of the earth, the battle with which is pinpointed in chapter 19.) This looks like Armageddon is quite a bit ahead of chapter 20 and verses 7-10, which describes the end of the thousand years.

Revelation is not a book that is written in order, as I think you will agree. Regardless, we do both agree that a great war of God (which I would suggest is THE great war of God) occurs at the end of the thousand years.

So regardless of whether a battle occurs at the start of the thousand years or not, one definitely occurs at the end, according to Scripture. Yes?

So all of the questions that I asked you are valid, and cannot be dismissed simply because you think I am confused about the timing of Armageddon. That doesn't mean you have to answer the questions. No one is obligated on this forum to answer anything. Besides, I think the answers are obvious.

But, be that as it may, your source outweighs the Scripture, as you have made clear before.

I did not write anything that is against scripture. Just against some interpretations of it.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 130 by tam]

I see now, after carefully reading your last few posts, that one reason you are so confused and contradictory is that you believe that Armageddon occurs AFTER the Millennial Reign! Very interesting. I haven't heard that one before. But Jesus speaks to just you, am I right?

After examining the Scriptures, it seems to me that Armageddon occurs when Jesus and his heavenly hosts come against the kings of the earth and their armies, in Revelation chapter 19. (Armageddon is mentioned in chapter 16, and refers to the kings of the earth, the battle with which is pinpointed in chapter 19.) This looks like Armageddon is quite a bit ahead of chapter 20 and verses 7-10, which describes the end of the thousand years.

But, be that as it may, your source outweighs the Scripture, as you have made clear before.

Would you mind telling me who else Jesus speaks directly to?

Yes, a major battle does occur at the end of the thousand years. This involves people who were resurrected DURING the Millennial Reign, and also people born during the Millennial Reign. Everyone has to be able to have their final say.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say previously, more than once, that the Scriptures do not tell you what Jesus said and that you get ALL of your instruction directly from him? I think that is pretty much negating the Scriptures.

And remind me, if you will, of any questions I didn't answer. I don't think they would amount to as many as you have not answered.

[tam]

[Replying to post 130 by tam]

I see now, after carefully reading your last few posts, that one reason you are so confused and contradictory is that you believe that Armageddon occurs AFTER the Millennial Reign! Very interesting. I haven't heard that one before. But Jesus speaks to just you, am I right?

After examining the Scriptures, it seems to me that Armageddon occurs when Jesus and his heavenly hosts come against the kings of the earth and their armies, in Revelation chapter 19. (Armageddon is mentioned in chapter 16, and refers to the kings of the earth, the battle with which is pinpointed in chapter 19.) This looks like Armageddon is quite a bit ahead of chapter 20 and verses 7-10, which describes the end of the thousand years.

But, be that as it may, your source outweighs the Scripture, as you have made clear before.

Would you mind telling me who else Jesus speaks directly to?

Anyone, everyone, whomever He wishes.

But I think the question you mean to ask is 'who else hears His voice'?

My words mean very little, I think you will agree. So what does Christ say?

"My sheep hear my voice."

Yes, a major battle does occur at the end of the thousand years. This involves people who were resurrected DURING the Millennial Reign, and also people born during the Millennial Reign. Everyone has to be able to have their final say.

The first resurrection occurs at the beginning of the thousand years. The second resurrection occurs at the end of the thousand years, after that great battle. That second resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, great and small... some are resurrected to life, and some are resurrected to judgment (and the second death); all based upon what they had done during their lives as recorded in their individual scrolls.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.


And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.



Note that it does not say, 'according to what they believed', but rather, 'according to what they had done.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say previously, more than once, that the Scriptures do not tell you what Jesus said and that you get ALL of your instruction directly from him?

I said that I listen to and learn from Him. I did not say that He never teaches the meaning of something that is written.

I think that is pretty much negating the Scriptures.

Christ speaking and His sheep hearing His voice is in line with what is written. Him NOT speaking and NO ONE hearing His voice negates the Scriptures.

And remind me, if you will, of any questions I didn't answer. I don't think they would amount to as many as you have not answered.

Re: the battle of gog and magog:

Where does this occur? Inside or outside the Kingdom?

If there is no outside the Kingdom on the earth, and people (on the earth) who follow Satan are destroyed, then is there death inside the Kingdom? Rebellion inside the Kingdom?


Also you said,

These ones that turn against Jehovah and Jesus and decide to go with Satan will somehow have learned to disguise their traitorous treachery while living alongside faithful ones. The Bible doesn't say how they do this, but it's obvious that they will have gotten away with it right up to the end. (It stands to reason that they would be careful not to expose themselves until the end.) Certainly if anyone exhibited signs of being a traitor, they would not be allowed to hurt loyal people.

I then summarized and asked:

Okay, so according to your theology, it seems:

a) there are bad/wicked people in the Kingdom, living alongside the faithful ones.

(As some of you have asked me: How is that different from life right now?)


b) these bad/wicked people are somehow able to hide their true selves from Christ and God.


(God who sees the heart? Even if a wicked person managed to fool a co-rule with Christ, how is that person going to also fool Christ and God - who sees the heart?)



May any who wish them be given ears to hear, so as to hear what the Spirit says. May any who thirst, "Come. Take the free gift of the water of Life."



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 135 by tam]

I respectfully disagree, and we will just have to agree to disagree. OK?

[tam]

[Replying to post 135 by tam]

I respectfully disagree, and we will just have to agree to disagree. OK?

OK.

Peace again to you, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Thanks.

[tam]

[Replying to post 89 by tam]

I couldn't glean an answer to my question from what you posted. If as it is clear the "sheep" are righteous and they are subjects of the kingdom. And the "meek" are also righteous they are reigning over the sheep, wouldn't that make two groups of righteous?

I think it is because your question focuses upon righteousness, and it is Christ who is the Righteous One. Those who belong to Him are covered by Him, so that there is no judgment for them, their sins are forgiven, and He trains them up. The sheep also have a covering: one that grants them entrance into the Kingdom: love, which is made manifest in their deeds, and as we know "love covers over a multitude of sins."




But there are two groups of people - yes: one group reigns with Christ as king-priests (for a thousand years); the other group enters as subjects.


If you have a specific point to your questioning regarding the meek, then you might have to spell it out more for me.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say before that there are not two groups of Christians? Or is my memory failing me?

Peace to you onewithhim. Your memory is not failing you : )


I also did not say in this post that there are two groups of Christians.

There are two groups of people who enter into the Kingdom:

One group would be Christians (who reign as kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years).

The second group would be non-Christians (who enter as subjects of the Kingdom).



Peace again to you!