The 144,000

[Checkpoint]

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?

Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

[tam]

May you all have peace,

[Replying to tam in post #168]


I just wanted to make note of something in addition to what has been previously stated. Though this is continuing more along the line of the great multitude (Rev 7:9), rather than just the 144 000.

From what I have read (and from what jw members have said to me, here and elsewhere), the WTS states that the great multitude (or 'great crowd') are not the brothers of Christ, are not the Bride; that they are not to eat of the bread or wine that mean the body and blood of Christ, and that they are not part of those who will reign with Christ in His Kingdom as king-priests.

In a recent WT article, the following is written about "the great crowd":

Thus, they qualify to stand before God’s throne to render him “sacred service day and night” in the earthly courtyard of his spiritual temple.


But compare that to the actual verse from scripture:

That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple Rev 7:15


The actual scripture states that they are in the temple. Not in 'the earthly courtyard' of that temple. But IN the temple itself. "In the earthly courtyard" is adding to what is written!

**

The word translated as temple is naos, and refers to the temple itself:

used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of the god was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)

ναός, ναοῦ, ὁ (ναίω to dwell), the Sept. for הֵיכָל, used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies (in classical Greek used of the sanctuary or cell of a temple, where the image of the god was placed, called also δόμος, σηκός, which is to be distinguished from τό ἱερόν, the whole temple, the entire consecrated enclosure;

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 3485&t=KJV

**

More than that, please also note that the great crowd is rendering sacred service - this is something that priests do.


More even than that, some may not know or perhaps they have forgotten: the Temple is the Body of Christ.


The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

19 [Jesus] answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said.


Christ is the Holy One of God and of Israel. As He said, no one comes to the Father (the MOST Holy One) except through Him. Just as no one could enter the MOST Holy place in the temple without passing through the HOLY place. In the spiritual reality of the physical example: Christ corresponds to the HOLY place; His Father to the MOST Holy place. Note that in Revelation, John "did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." (Rev 21:22)



The Great Crowd is indeed in the Temple... which is the Body of Christ... therefore, the Great Crowd is in the Body of Christ; and so is also the Church, the Bride, and the brothers of Christ who reigns as kings and priests with Him in His Kingdom.



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to get a sense of these things. May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, "Come!", as the Spirit and the Bride say to you. "Come, take the free gift of the water of Life!"

(which water is holy spirit, poured out from the innermost portions of Christ Jaheshua, given to Him without end from His Father)


Peace again to you, and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Eloi]

Hi Tam.
It is easy to understand the different roles between the 144,000 and the great crowd if you remember the differences between the Levites in Israel and the rest of the tribes.

[JehovahsWitness]

That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple Rev 7:15


The actual scripture states that they are in the temple. Not in 'the earthly courtyard' of that temple. But IN the temple itself.

A few questions for those that feel they know scriipture well enough : Did Solomon build a temple?

2 CHRONICLES 4:9

Then he made the courtyard of the priests and the great court and the doors for the court, and he overlaid their doors with copper

1 KING 6:36
He built the inner courtyard with three rows of hewn stone and a row of cedar beams.

Were sacrifices made in the temple or outside of the temple?

2 CHRON 7:7

Then Solomon sanctified the middle of the courtyard that was before the house of Jehovah, for there he had to offer up the burnt offerings and the fat pieces of the communion sacrifices, because the copper altar that Solʹo·mon had made could not contain the burnt sacrifices, the grain offerings, and the fat pieces.

Where was the copper alter of SACRIFICE? in the temple or outside the temple ?

2 CHRONICLES 7:12
Jehovah then appeared to Solʹo·mon during the night and said to him: “I have heard your prayer, and I have chosen this place for myself as a house of sacrifice.

When Jesus accused the money changers of making his father house a cave of robbers, where were they doing business? Inside temple or outside the temple? In short, if one was to stand in the holy COURTYARD would one be inside the temple or not ?

DOES THE BOOK OF REVELATION DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE TEMPLE AND THE TEMPLE SANCTURY ?

REVELATION 11:1, 2

And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it

What was in the temple SANCTUARY and who alone ere permitted to enter It?

REVELATION 11:19

And the temple sanctuary of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary. And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.

If only the PRIESTS where allowed to enter the SANCTUARY did that mean the Isarelites that gathered in the COURTYARD were outside the temple or inside the temple sanctuary?



DOES REVELATION 7:15 GO SO FAR AS'TO SAY THE GREAT CROWD STOOD IN THE TEMPLE SACTUARTY OR ONLY IN THE TEMPLE?

That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple Rev 7:15

Was the'temple courtyard part of the temple? (See above) Repeat as many times as necessary.

CONCLUSION : Could it be while both being "in the TEMPLE" (See above for scriptural support) those that worship in the TEMPLE SANCTUARY picture one one group of approved servants of God, and those inside the temple COURTYARD picture another? Those that do not understand the type cannot possibly hope to understand its much grander antitype.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




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WORSHIP , THE TEMPLE and ... GOD'S HEAVENLY ORGANISATION

[tam]

Peace to you,

That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple Rev 7:15


The actual scripture states that they are in the temple. Not in 'the earthly courtyard' of that temple. But IN the temple itself. "In the earthly courtyard" is adding to what is written!

A few questions for tu le you've feeling brave.

Read and respond to the content of my entire post, and I will read and respond to yours.

Though many of your questions concerning the temple versus the temple sanctuary were already addressed in my post.

Peace again to you.

[Avoice]

Temple is the body...who told you this? It wasn't God. Gid NEVER said anything like that.

But God does tell us that the third Temple will be built. And that the Messiah, the prince will offer a sacrifice for himself and also for Israel.

The church says Jesus died once for all sins and that he was sinless. If that were true then why will the sacrificial system be reinstated in the end times? And if the Messiah is to be some sinless mangod then why is he offering a sacrifice for himself in the Temple?

The sacrificial system will return. God said so. The church lies.

[Avoice]

[Replying to tam in post #171]

There is only one that we must go through to get to God. Right through him. Satan. An angel of God. Have you heard how he operates?
The serpent never ate from the tree vin the garden. He just got other to do it. Even promising them eternal life if they did. God said different.
Fast forward to Jesus. He is said to be sinless. But he managed to get billions of people to turn their backs to God's laws. How did he do that? He promises eternal life. That's how.
That's all Christianity is about. .. living forever without obeying God. They just think they are obeying God by listening to Jesus. Their selfish desire to not want to die made it easy for the adversary to get them to follow him.
Selfish. Selfish. Selfish.
Hear what God says to you who think you are inheriting eternal life without the God of Israel being your God:

"Like a partridge that sits on eggs and doesn't hatch them is he who gets riches and not by right will leave them in the midst of his days and in the end will be a fool"

Christianity is God's gift to those that hate him. He has allowed them to live out their days without worry. Going to their graves with a smile on their faces thinking they will live forever. He let them choose the life they wanted. And he is letting them enjoy it. What an awesome God.

Why would God save those who don't want anything to do with him? They like bacon more than him. He said don't eat pig. They don't care. They eat it anyway. So be it. Enjoy it. Enjoy every single bite. That is your gift. Enjoy it. This IS YOUR LIFE. But this is it

[tam]

Peace to you,

Temple is the body...who told you this? It wasn't God. Gid NEVER said anything like that.

Christ - the Word of God - said this; referring to the Temple (that is His Body) that would be raised up.

But God does tell us that the third Temple will be built.

Indeed.

But this is a living Temple: the Body of Christ (of which we may be in if indeed we are in Him).

The Living God has a living Temple; a Living Word; a Living Image.

And that the Messiah, the prince will offer a sacrifice for himself and also for Israel.

This has already been done. He was Himself the sacrifice.

The church says Jesus died once for all sins and that he was sinless. If that were true then why will the sacrificial system be reinstated in the end times?

No sacrificial system is going to be reinstated. What some are waiting for has already been done, one sacrifice for all time.

It is similar to the city of New Jerusalem, if you can get a sense of this. New Jerusalem is a city that is made of PEOPLE; not a city made of bricks, and streets, and houses, etc. New Jerusalem is a LIVING city; made of LIVING people; with Christ and God as the Temple in that city (Christ being the Holy and God the MOST Holy).


I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. Rev 21:22

The physical things given to Israel are there to help Israel (and anyone else) be able to get a sense of the spiritual realities.

Consider the following as an example:

The physical Temple had Most Holy Place, as well as a Holy Place through which one had to pass in order to enter into the MOST Holy Place. Just as one must come through Christ (the Holy One of Israel and of God) in order to come before the Most Holy One of Israel (God).

And if the Messiah is to be some sinless mangod then why is he offering a sacrifice for himself in the Temple?

Perhaps because He was a man while in the flesh, and the flesh has sin in it (or it would not die); and remember also that Christ carried our iniquities in Himself (His flesh).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #171]

There is only one that we must go through to get to God. Right through him. Satan.

We do not need Satan's permission to come before God. That does not even make sense.

Have you heard how he operates?
The serpent never ate from the tree vin the garden. He just got other to do it. Even promising them eternal life if they did. God said different.

Yes.

(You accept then that the serpent was the Adversary, the one called Satan, then?)

Fast forward to Jesus. He is said to be sinless.

I recall where Christ said to stop sinning to some; but I do not recall where He is written to have said specifically, 'be sinless.' None of us are without sin.

But he managed to get billions of people to turn their backs to God's laws.

What billions of people?

The law mediated by Moses was between Israel and God. Gentiles were not under that law, so how could any Gentile have turned his back to something that he was not part of to begin with?

Christ also never said to break God's law. He emphasized the most important commandments: Love God with your whole heart, mind, soul; love your neighbor as yourself; love even your enemies; and to His disciples He also said to love one another as He loved them. He also quoted from Hosea that God desires mercy, not sacrifice. The law from God is love. God is Himself love, so of course the law that comes from Him will be love. We also know that love covers over a multitude of sins (Proverbs 10:12). There is no law against, and mercy comes from love.

Love IS the law.

The law was a tutor leading to Christ, and even Moses said (as God taught him) that when the Messiah comes, the people were to listen to that Messiah.

How did he do that? He promises eternal life. That's how.

He promises eternal life, yes. But He does not teach anyone to disobey God. He is the Word of God, and the One to whom God said to listen.

That's all Christianity is about. .. living forever without obeying God. They just think they are obeying God by listening to Jesus. Their selfish desire to not want to die made it easy for the adversary to get them to follow him.

I am not going to speak to what the religion is about at the moment (since I belong to and follow no religion; I belong to and follow Christ, a person). But I listen to Christ because a) God has said to do so; and b) because I love both God and Christ (though they loved me first).

Hear what God says to you who think you are inheriting eternal life without the God of Israel being your God:

My God is the Most Holy One (of Israel). He is the God and Father of Christ (Jaheshua).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[otseng]

The church lies.

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