The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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JehovahsWitness
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Post #121

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: No, the 'goats' will be OUTSIDE the Kingdom.
But they will still be living on the earth if I understand correctly. So you claim the meek will be on the "earth" and the goats that are not subjects of the kingom will ALSO be "on the earth" ? Unless they have their own country, and kept there so they cannot cause harm to the meek, how is that different from life now?

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tam
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Post #122

Post by tam »

I have responded to all of these questions. Very few of the questions I have posed to you and your fellow jws have even been acknowledged.

Discussions are supposed to go two ways. And by responding to questions, some of the responses you have not 'seen' might be made more clear. At the very least the discussion might move forward.


Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #123

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 121 by tam]

Yes, but your teachings are unbiblical, your claims make no sense and your answers are illogical and vague. You say that the meek and the goats will both be living on the earth but when asked does that mean they will be living side by side in the same territory you don't answer. When asked how is that different from the situation now you don't answer.

Your teachings are most unconvincing. Have you been able to convince any other human being on the planet of your particular dogma?

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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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tam
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Post #124

Post by tam »

Though it is not my teaching, and though my Lord is the One who taught or allowed me to see the things that I have shared (freely as I have been given); the things that I have shared are indeed supported by what is written:

- The 144 000 are SEALED (biblical) before...

- The four winds are released (biblical)

- The Great Tribulation begins (biblical)

- The Great Tribulation is cut short because... (biblical)


- .... Christ returns and first gathers up His Bride (the first resurrection - those who have died, and those who are still alive when He returns) for their marriage in the spiritual realm. (biblical)

- He and His Bride (the New Jerusalem) come down out of heaven and reign upon the earth (thousand year reign) (also biblical)

- The nations alive at this time (who cannot be Christian, because all Christian were taken up and changed) are gathered before Christ for the separation of the sheep and the goats. The sheep enter into the Kingdom and the goats are cast outside of the Kingdom. (biblical)

(So obviously this Kingdom is upon the earth... as you must also acknowledge, since the sheep enter the Kingdom, and your religion teaches that the sheep are meek ones who are upon the earth.)

- At the end of the thousand years Satan is released from his prison (the abyss) and misleads 'gog and magog' into attacking the people God loves. (biblical)

- Fire from heaven devours them. (also biblical)

- The second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) occurs, where some are resurrected to life and some are resurrected to judgment. (biblical)

- Then Death (the last enemy) and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire (the second death) and destroyed. (biblical)


Then God is all in all. (biblical)



Just because your understanding and interpretation is different than the one given me, does not mean that your understanding is correct... OR... that the things I have shared are untrue, or even not 'biblical'.



**

You say that I did not answer whether or not the sheep and the goats will be living in the same territory. How can inside a Kingdom and outside a Kingdom be the same territory?


**



So let me ask you some questions:

Where do you say the goats will be living?

How will the goats die?

How will they be cast out of the Kingdom?

Is there death in the Kingdom?

Who comes against the people ON THE EARTH at the end of the thousand years, if indeed the wicked/goats are not also living on the earth?

And if they are living on the earth, according to your interpretation, how are they not living side by side with the meek? How are THEY kept separate from the meek?


Just a few questions. I'm sure there will be more if you answer these ones.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #125

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Though it is not my teaching, and though my Lord is the One who taught or allowed me to see the things that I have shared (freely as I have been given)
Yes, I know you claim to have some kind of direct revelation from God, but I reject all modern day self proclaimed "prophets" in favor of divine revelation in scripture, so I don't believe you are in communication with God or that he is revealing things to you. I'm sure you don't care and I'm not claiming you indicated that you did care, I'm just sharing my position as to your claims.

You may be sharing your personal interpretation (teaching) but you are not doing so in my opinion very effectively. I haven't sufficiently addressed the issues your personal interpretation raises not explained fully what you mean for example by being "cast outside the kindgom" but still living on the earth.... and when questioned further you have simply alluded to some kind of mystical divine revelation you have.

Peace and Respect to you and all you hold dear,
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #126

Post by ttruscott »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote: Though it is not my teaching, and though my Lord is the One who taught or allowed me to see the things that I have shared (freely as I have been given)
Yes, I know you claim to have some kind of direct revelation from God, but I reject all modern day self proclaimed "prophets" in favor of divine revelation in scripture, so I don't believe you are in communication with God or that he is revealing things to you.
You reject her claim to receiving revelation but you must accept someone's claim to be receiving/received revelation as you follow a distinctly different path from the norm in GOD's name. Nor does the world 'modern' have the emphasis to me that it seems to have for you in that 200 some years is a short time in Spiritual terms. And does not the WTS still claim revelation?

How do you choose which revelation to accept and which to reject? Not on modernity I suspect.

I suspect that like myself you accept a certain past revelation as true and and the Spirit of that revelation as GOD and then you compare all new thoughts to what you have already accepted as truth to see if it fits or misses the mark. I have had a few new thoughts come to me from this forum for instance which fit quite well into PCE Theology and which I've taken in.

The Bible is what it is - what men say it means is interpretation. All commentary is interpretation. All dogma is interpretation. We must be just as led in interpretation as in understanding what is the world of GOD.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #127

Post by JehovahsWitness »

ttruscott wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote: Though it is not my teaching, and though my Lord is the One who taught or allowed me to see the things that I have shared (freely as I have been given)
Yes, I know you claim to have some kind of direct revelation from God, but I reject all modern day self proclaimed "prophets" in favor of divine revelation in scripture, so I don't believe you are in communication with God or that he is revealing things to you.
How do you choose which revelation to accept and which to reject? Not on modernity I suspect.
I'm sorry, maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough, what I meant to say is I reject all modern day self proclaimed "prophets" in favor of divine revelation in scripture.

Hope that clears up any misunderstanding,

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #128

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: I have responded to all of these questions. Very few of the questions I have posed to you and your fellow jws have even been acknowledged.

Discussions are supposed to go two ways. And by responding to questions, some of the responses you have not 'seen' might be made more clear. At the very least the discussion might move forward.


Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Though I have answered every question you have asked me, you have consistently refused to answer my questions. I have asked several very simple questions that should be easy for you to explain. After all, you believe this stuff. But you would not answer my questions as to If humans were first created as spirit persons, why does the Bible say that Adam was made from the dust of the ground; if God created Adam and Eve to be spirit people, why would He put them on a physical Earth? Why would He not have created them to be with Him and the angels in heaven? I haven't gotten any kind of answer about those questions from you.




:-|

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Post #129

Post by onewithhim »

[quote="tam"



So let me ask you some questions:

Where do you say the goats will be living?

How will the goats die?

How will they be cast out of the Kingdom?

Is there death in the Kingdom?

Who comes against the people ON THE EARTH at the end of the thousand years, if indeed the wicked/goats are not also living on the earth?

And if they are living on the earth, according to your interpretation, how are they not living side by side with the meek? How are THEY kept separate from the meek?
[/quote]




ONEWITHHIM RESPONDS:

It doesn't do much for a viable discussion to answer your questions (though I and other JWs have done so) because you won't answer ours. But I will once again answer your questions above.

(1) Where will the goats be living? Answer: The goats are the wicked people that are separated from the good people (the sheep) just before Armageddon. Jesus said that the "goats" would be destroyed, as if cast into a fire (Matthew 25:41). "These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life." (v.46) This destruction of the wicked is called Armageddon. I asked you before if bad people are allowed to live under Christ's Millennial Rule, then what is Armageddon for? And I got no answer.

(2) How will the goats die? Answer: By the hand of Jesus when he comes at Armageddon, depicted at Revelation 19: 11-21.

(3) How will they be cast out of the Kingdom? Answer: They will never have been IN the Kingdom. They will have been executed before Jesus starts his Thousand-Year Reign over the earth.

(4) Is there death in the Kingdom? Answer: The Bible says that after the thousand years, there will be a re-surging of Satan to try and bring down people with him. There will be many who choose to follow him. They will all then be destroyed, as if being burned in fire (Revelation 20: 7-10). (The word "tormented" is taken from a word meaning "jailed" or "a condition of RESTRAINT." Satan's and the ones who follow him's destruction will be an excellent way of restraining them from doing any more harm. All evil ones will be annihilated forever.

(5) Who comes against the people on the earth at the end of the thousand years, if indeed the wicked/goats are not also living on the earth? Answer: None of the people on the earth, at the end of the thousand years, are "goats." The goats will have already been obliterated. The people who choose to go with Satan are either those that started out as sheep but, during the Millennium, changed their minds and decided to go with Satan, AND/OR are people born during the Millennial Reign. All the people will still have free will, and will be able to change their minds, or pursue an evil course, though others might not see it. Don't you agree? The Scriptures say that "fire came down from heaven and devoured them" (Revelation 20:9), so their destruction comes from heaven where Jehovah and Jesus are.

These ones that turn against Jehovah and Jesus and decide to go with Satan will somehow have learned to disguise their traitorous treachery while living alongside faithful ones. The Bible doesn't say how they do this, but it's obvious that they will have gotten away with it right up to the end. (It stands to reason that they would be careful not to expose themselves until the end.) Certainly if anyone exhibited signs of being a traitor, they would not be allowed to hurt loyal people.



Now, do you care to answer my questions (that I've asked for many days)?

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Post #130

Post by tam »

onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote: I have responded to all of these questions. Very few of the questions I have posed to you and your fellow jws have even been acknowledged.

Discussions are supposed to go two ways. And by responding to questions, some of the responses you have not 'seen' might be made more clear. At the very least the discussion might move forward.


Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Though I have answered every question you have asked me, you have consistently refused to answer my questions. I have asked several very simple questions that should be easy for you to explain. After all, you believe this stuff. But you would not answer my questions as to If humans were first created as spirit persons, why does the Bible say that Adam was made from the dust of the ground; if God created Adam and Eve to be spirit people, why would He put them on a physical Earth? Why would He not have created them to be with Him and the angels in heaven? I haven't gotten any kind of answer about those questions from you.




:-|

Different thread. And I did respond to those questions in that thread. If there are any questions in this thread of yours that I have not responded to, then you may have to point them out.

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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