Christian Theology and the Hebrew Scriptures

[Joe Blackbird]

Jesus is recorded in Matthew as having said;
"For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (Mat 5;17-18)
Earth still, apparently, exists- so clearly Jesus believed in the authority of the law and that it should be followed (at least ‘until heaven and earth pass away‘).

He also reportedly declared himself to be a major subject of the Hebrew Bible;
Luk 24:44 Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

But there are elements of Christian theology that appear to be completely foreign to the Hebrew Scriptures. For example;

1-Where is it explicitly written in the Hebrew Scriptures that God must become human and die to eliminate the system of ritual animal sacrifice that it says he himself set up to atone for sins?

Lev 1:2-4 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of you brings an offering to the LORD, you shall bring your offering of livestock from the herd or from the flock. "If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish. He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD. He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.”

2-Where is it explicitly written in the Hebrew Scriptures that Hell has been designed as a place where specifically non-Christians go to be tortured for eternity when they die?

3-Where is it explicitly written in the Hebrew Scriptures that the Messiah will actually be God himself?

These beliefs seem to form the bedrock of New Testament theology for many Christians, but if they do not have their origins in the Hebrew Scriptures, where did they come from and why were they given such authority in Christianity?

[JonnyH]

Joe Blackbird said

2-Where is it explicitly written in the Hebrew Scriptures that Hell has been designed as a place where specifically non-Christians go to be tortured for eternity when they die?"

Where is it written in Hebrew Scriptures that there even is a hell.
Also many things like even the idea of angles are changed. The word in Hebrew malachim is translated as angles or messengers. The whole idea of a halo and wings and divinity came from the Greeks and the Christians adopted it. As the Torah says, angles look just like men, and may or may not actually be men. With or without any Special abilities.

[Easyrider]

Joe Blackbird said Quote:
2-Where is it explicitly written in the Hebrew Scriptures that Hell has been designed as a place where specifically non-Christians go to be tortured for eternity when they die?"

There's a pretty fair allusion to it in Daniel 12:2: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Of course the key question here is: Where is this place of "shame and everlasting contempt?" It doesn't sound like any place I would want to go.

Also, one might consider the following:

20 reasons why sheol is not (necessarily) the grave:

Even if the word sheol did refer to a literal grave so what! The word "spirit" sometimes refers to literal wind or breath, but most time the word is used, it cannot refer to wind or breath. So too, the vast majority of uses of Sheol/Hades cannot refer to the grave.

(Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, p. 76,77)

While the kabar (to bury) is used in connection with kever it is never used in connection with Sheol.

We can bury someone in a grave but we cannot bury anyone in Sheol (Gen. 23:4, 6, 9,19, 20; 49:30, 31, etc.).

While kever is found in its plural form "graves" (Ex. 14:11), the word Sheol is never pluralized.

While a grave is located at a specific site (Ex. 14:11), Sheol is never localized, because it is everywhere accessible at death no matter where the death takes place. No grave is necessary in order to go to Sheol.

While we can purchase or sell a grave (Gen. 23:4-20), Scripture never speaks of Sheol being purchased or sold.

While we can own a grave as personal property (Gen. 23:4-20), nowhere in scripture is Sheol owned by man.

While we can discriminate between graves and pick the "choicest site" (Gen. 23:6), nowhere in Scripture is a "choice" Sheol pitted against a "poor" Sheol.

While we can drop a dead body into a grave (Gen. 50:13), no one can drop anyone into Sheol.

While we can erect a monument over a grave (Gen. 35:20), Sheol is never spoken of as having monuments.

While we can, with ease, open or close a grave (2 Kings 23:16), Sheol is never opened or closed by man.

While we can touch a grave (Num. 19:18), no one is ever said in Scripture to touch Sheol.

While touching a grave brings ceremonial defilement (Num. 19:16), the Scriptures never speak of anyone being defiled by Sheol.

While we can enter and leave a tomb or grave (2 Kings 23:16), no one is ever said to enter and then leave Sheol.

While we can choose the site of our own grave (Gen. 23:4-9), Sheol is never spoken of as something we can pick and choose.

While we can remove or uncover the bodies or bones in a grave (2 Kings 23:16), the Scriptures never speak of man removing or uncovering anything in Sheol.

While we can beautify a grave with ornate carvings or pictures (Gen. 35:20), Sheol is never beautified by man.

While graves can be robbed or defiled (Jer. 8:1,2), Sheol is never spoken of as being robbed or defiled by man.

While a grave can be destroyed by man (Jer. 8:1,2), nowhere in Scripture is man said to be able to destroy Sheol.

While a grave can be full, Sheol is never full (Prov. 27:20).

While we can see a grave, Sheol is always invisible.

While we can visit the graves of loved ones, nowhere in Scripture is man said to visit Sheol.

More on sheol in the link below.

http://www.bible.ca/su-hades.htm

[Easyrider]

Jesus is recorded in Matthew as having said;
"For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (Mat 5;17-18)
Earth still, apparently, exists- so clearly Jesus believed in the authority of the law and that it should be followed (at least ‘until heaven and earth pass away‘).

He also reportedly declared himself to be a major subject of the Hebrew Bible;
Luk 24:44 Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

But there are elements of Christian theology that appear to be completely foreign to the Hebrew Scriptures. For example;

1-Where is it explicitly written in the Hebrew Scriptures that God must become human and die to eliminate the system of ritual animal sacrifice that it says he himself set up to atone for sins?

Lev 1:2-4 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of you brings an offering to the LORD, you shall bring your offering of livestock from the herd or from the flock. "If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish. He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD. He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.”

2-Where is it explicitly written in the Hebrew Scriptures that Hell has been designed as a place where specifically non-Christians go to be tortured for eternity when they die?

3-Where is it explicitly written in the Hebrew Scriptures that the Messiah will actually be God himself?

These beliefs seem to form the bedrock of New Testament theology for many Christians, but if they do not have their origins in the Hebrew Scriptures, where did they come from and why were they given such authority in Christianity?

# 1. Jeremiah 23:5-6 (see below) and Isaiah 9:6-7 speak of God becoming man (or a child).

Isaiah 53 (virtually universally accepted by ancient rabbis as Messianic) describes his sacrifice, including, "And the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all (53:6).

# 2 see my previous post.

# 3 - A number of rabbis considered Daniel 7:13-14 Messianic. The scripture says, "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”

Since only God has sovereign power, and since the Bible states you shall worship the Lord only, and since God has stated he will not share his glory with another, then one can deduce this answers at least part of the question.

Ancient rabbis are also on record as stating Jeremiah 23:5-6 as Messianic. That scripture states:

"The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD (Jehovah) Our Righteousness. “

Here, a descendent of King David would be called, "THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Cheers...

[Joe Blackbird]

Easyrider, I have to commend you- you have provided excellent responses to all of my inquiries. Unless this information can somehow be contradicted by other passages that disprove the ones you quoted, I will have to admit defeat on this issue. Non-Christians out there, any thoughts on the passages quoted by Easyrider? I am very impressed so far.

[Cathar1950]

# 1. Jeremiah 23:5-6 (see below) and Isaiah 9:6-7 speak of God becoming man (or a child).

Isaiah 53 (virtually universally accepted by ancient rabbis as Messianic) describes his sacrifice, including, "And the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all (53:6).

Jewish thought tends to see those passages as referring to Israel, some the prophets or even the king.

defeat on this issue. Non-Christians out there, any thoughts on the passages quoted by Easyrider? I am very impressed so far.

Wow Joe it doesn't take much to defeat or impress you.

[Easyrider]

# 1. Jeremiah 23:5-6 (see below) and Isaiah 9:6-7 speak of God becoming man (or a child).

Isaiah 53 (virtually universally accepted by ancient rabbis as Messianic) describes his sacrifice, including, "And the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all (53:6).

Jewish thought tends to see those passages as referring to Israel, some the prophets or even the king.

Well first, let's put some ancient rabbinic quotations on record:

Rabbi Moses Alschech(1508-1600) says:
"Our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view."

Babylonian Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)

Midrash Ruth Rabbah: "Another explanation (of Ruth ii.14): -- He is speaking of king Messiah; `Come hither,' draw near to the throne; `and eat of the bread,' that is, the bread of the kingdom; `and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,' this refers to his chastisements, as it is said, `But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities'"
Targum Jonathan: "Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high and increase and be exceedingly strong..."

Zohar: "`He was wounded for our transgressions,' etc....There is in the Garden of Eden a palace called the Palace of the Sons of Sickness; this palace the Messiah then enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel; they all come and rest upon him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel's chastisements for the transgression of the law: and this is that which is written, `Surely our sicknesses he hath carried.'"

Rabbi Moses Maimonides: "What is the manner of Messiah's advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zech. 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will harken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived." (From the Letter to the South (Yemen), quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 374-5)

Rabbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so." (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)

Additional Rabbinic quotes in the following link:

http://www.hearnow.org/isa_com.html

Next, when Isaiah chapter 53 started to look too much like Jesus, then there was a shift in rabbinic tradition from one of the Messiah and the Suffering Servant, to interpreting it as being Israel instead. However, this latter interpretation has some serious flaws, i.e.

Israel does not even fit the description of the Servant in Isaiah 53:
The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

When did Israel suffer and not open her mouth (v. 7)? Are you suggesting that Jews have never complained about their oppression? That doesn't match history either.

When was Israel cut off from the land of the living (v.8)?

When was Israel assigned a grave with the rich (v.8)?

When can we say that Israel did no violence (v.9)? Isaiah chapter 1, verse 15 states, “Your hands are full of blood.” They also went on a violent tear under the leadership of Joshua, etc., etc.

When did Israel bear your iniquities (v.11)? Specify the time of such an event. How does the Jewish nation bear your iniquities?

These questions are not directed specifically at you, but at the proponents of the Isaiah 53 - Israel theory.

But like I say, early rabbinic tradition virtually unanimously identified the servant of Isaiah 53 as the Messiah. This is also evident in Judaism often alluding to the "two Messiahs" - Messiah ben David" - the conquering King, and Messiah ben Joseph" - the suffering servant / Messiah. They couldn't reconcile the two, but they are reconciled and fulfilled in Christ.

In fact, if you look at Daniel 9:24-27 you will see that AFTER the Messiah is cut off (an idiom for killed), THEN the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (Temple) are destroyed, and war continues until the end. Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in 70 A.D. So even the Jewish concept of a Messiah who will reign victoriously (and not suffer and die first) is contradicted by their own Scriptures. Jesus fills the prophecy correctly, though.

Cheers...

[Easyrider]

Easyrider, I have to commend you- you have provided excellent responses to all of my inquiries. Unless this information can somehow be contradicted by other passages that disprove the ones you quoted, I will have to admit defeat on this issue. Non-Christians out there, any thoughts on the passages quoted by Easyrider? I am very impressed so far.

Thanks, Joe. I posted a few other things since that last post you read. Please check those out. God bless!

[Scrotum]

How come i never get "commended" when i point out such a easy reality as "there is no God", or "No, the easter bunny do not exist". Etcetera.

"Selective Reality" must be a new term i will coin. People whom simply ignore the things they dont want to hear.

[Joe Blackbird]

Wow Joe it doesn't take much to defeat or impress you.

Thanks for your response Cathar. I'm not here to obstinately prove that I am right. I am here to get answers to serious doubts that I have about Christianity. If a response is good, I have no problem admitting it. Easyrider did not side-step my questions, as other Christians have done at this site. He also took the time to give reasonable answer to ALL of my questions. If I am certain that the person I am responding to is being evasive or dishonest, I am rolling up my sleeves and ready for a good debate. If they are shooting straight, I have nothing to debate with them. It only takes integrity to impress me Cathar.

Scrotum. I am sorry that you haven't been commended more often. However, I do recall you making fun of me in another post and completely avoiding my questions. Easyrider deserves commendation because he gave a commendable response. Perhaps you should follow his example and you will invoke positive feedback from other posters.