Paradise on Earth

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onewithhim
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Paradise on Earth

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #2181

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:10 am [Replying to tam in post #2175]
The people with the earthly hope will not all have died when Armageddon comes, but those with the heavenly hope will have died, so they can come back with Christ when he comes to wage God's war at Armageddon. That is what a close examination of the scriptures tells us.

.
That is not what Paul said:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

And,

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.


Clearly, some are alive and caught up when Christ returns (descends from heaven). The dead rise first, then 'we who are alive and remain' are caught up together with them (the dead who are the first to rise), in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

This occurs when Christ returns, something that has not yet happened.



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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #2182

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:03 pm WHY DID PAUL SAY THE APPOINTED WOULD NOT SLEEP IF SLEEP IS A METAPHOR FOR DEATH?
Sleeping equals the period of time AFTER YOU DIE that you remain in that condition.
CONCLUSION: Paul was not saying the anointed will not die, he was saying they would not SLEEP, ie they would not spend more than a split nanosecond (the twinkling of an eye, ie. A blink) in that condition before being returned to life in spirit form.

JW
Wrong on both accounts.

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

Two "deaths" are defined in the Bible -- the first and the second.

The first death is appointed to every human who ever lived:
Hebrews 9:27 wrote:And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Just as every man will die their first death, likewise, everyone who ever died will be resurrected to life again:
[I Corinthians 15:22-23 wrote:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
If true death is permanent, then our first death is not death at all, as it does not meet the definition of death. That is, it is not final or permanent. We will all live again following our first "death."

Thus, when the first death of any man is discussed in the Bible, the words used to describe that event are sleep, slumber, or rest. Only man, among all the animals is said to sleep, slumber, or rest when he dies. Rest in peace. RIP.

In fact, when Jesus raised people from the dead, He often stated they were not dead, but simply asleep:
John 11:11 wrote:Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
When pressed, Jesus spoke plainly and stated that Lazarus was indeed dead. Plainly indicates that Jesus spoke in terms of how man understands death:
John 11:14 wrote:Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:14)
The second possibly death is spoken of as a death in the Bible. There is no coming back to any life after being cast into the lake of fire and suffering the second death. Therefore, it is a true permanent death:
Revelation 20:14-15 wrote:And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #2183

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:08 pm

That is not what Paul said:

17After that, ]we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Clearly, some are alive and caught up when Christ returns ....
Yes Paul says those alive when Christ returns will be "caught up in the air" to meet Jesus:
  • Does Paul actually >> say << "they do not die"?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #2184

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:08 pmPaul said:.. then 'we who are alive and remain' are caught up together with them (the dead who are the first to rise), in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Yes so we have established four facts
FACT #1 They are alive when Christ returns

FACT #2 They are will be caught up in the air

FACT #3 Paul says something happens to them (very quickly) a "change" ( see 1 Cor 15:52).

FACT #4 They meet Jesus (We can reasonably deduce that they are alive when they meet the Lord).
ALIVE AS HUMANS IN THE FLESH ====>A "CHANGE" ==== ALIVE AS SPIRITS (MEET JESUS)




QUESTION:

According to scripture, what is NECESSARY in order to "change" from being mortal physical humans to mighty spiritual creatures?

1 CORINTHIANS 15: 35, 36, 44

Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies ... It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body.





JW


RELATED POSTS
What does the CHANGE those who are caught up to be with Jesus actually represent? [This post]?
viewtopic.php?p=1064153#p1064153

Do Pauls words that some would not SLEEP not mean that they would not DIE?
viewtopic.php?p=1064110#p1064110

Are the "Great Crowd" caught up to be with Jesus?
viewtopic.php?p=1039502#p1039502
To learn more please go to other posts related to

HEAVEN , DEATH and ... BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS,
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #2185

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:10 am
tam wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:08 pm

That is not what Paul said:

17After that, ]we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Clearly, some are alive and caught up when Christ returns ....
Yes Paul says those alive when Christ returns will be "caught up in the air" to meet Jesus:
  • Does Paul actually >> say << "they do not die"?
Yes, when He said 'we will not all sleep'.

Despite the gymnastics employed earlier to suggest that sleep (as death) only applies to a person being dead longer than a nanosecond.


If you want to add in 'we who are alive and remain first die and are then caught up', well, that is not something that Paul said.


**

Note also that these things happen at once, at the last trump, when Christ returns (He returns with those who have died in Him... and... gathers up to Himself those who are yet alive on the earth). It is not a process that occurs over a century (adding one more year each year we get father and farther away from "1914").


Peace again to you.
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #2186

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:12 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:10 pm Peace again to you.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:59 pm
paul wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:41 pm We will not all sleep
tam wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:46 pm... meaning we will not all die


Your opinion has been noted

JW
Christ used the same metaphor when describing Lazarus as having fallen asleep, though Lazarus had actually died.

So if you want to say it is merely my opinion, well then, I guess your opinion has been noted.


After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

His disciples replied, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” They thought that [Jesus] was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.

So [Jesus] told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,



Peace again.
Is Lazarus alive today, or did he die?
As far as I understand, he died (same as the little girl that died, whom Christ said was sleeping, and who He woke up). Lazarus was not resurrected into the new body.
Are Paul and his listeners dead today, or down at the pawn shop trying to scope a bargain?


I'm not sure what the pawn shop has to do with it, but Paul and all the rest died.
Does everyone die for their own iniquities (Jeremiah 31:30),
All men sin, so yes.
or does someone die for them, so they can live until they die?


Someone died for them so that they can live (receive a resurrection, have eternal life, be forgiven, even never descend to the world of the dead, but instead go 'under the altar', though they yet sleep there...)
What is your actual message?


What do you mean?

I am just a servant, a witness to Christ.

Or more interesting, the JWs apparently, do not sleep once they die, how does that work, when the dead cannot think (Ecclesiastes), not that you are a JW, but you might know?
I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. That might be because I am not a jw, and your question only applies to their beliefs.



Peace again to you.
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #2187

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:39 pm

That is not what Paul said:...
I think we can all appreciate your aversion to attributing a word to Paul that he did not actually write.and not swopping one word and replacing it with another.
  • Does Paul actually >> say << "they do not die"?
tam wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:39 pmYes, when He said 'we will not all sleep'.

Your response has been noted ,

Thank you for your participation, goodbye


JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Romans 14:8

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #2188

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:43 am
QUESTION:
According to scripture, what is NECESSARY in order to "change" from being mortal physical humans to mighty spiritual creatures?


Mortal physical humans must be born again of the Spirit to become mighty spiritual creatures:

Jesus Christ wrote:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:6-7)

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #2189

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #2188]

It is clear that Paul spoke of those anointed that had died from his time until the last days would "sleep" in death. There would be those of the anointed who would still be alive when Jesus came back. Those ones would die and then immediately be raised up to heaven to be with Jesus, AFTER the others had been resurrected. Very simple, and according to the scriptures.

People with the earthly hope and who died will be resurrected during the Millennial Reign. Some who are alive at Armageddon will go right on into the new system without ever dying. It takes a sharp eye to discern these truths, and someone who is willing to think deeply about this. The scriptures actually do not say what has been taught for centuries.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #2190

Post by onewithhim »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:39 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #2188]

It is clear that Paul spoke of those anointed that had died from his time until the last days would "sleep" in death. There would be those of the anointed who would still be alive when Jesus came back. Those ones would die and then immediately be raised up to heaven to be with Jesus, AFTER the others had been resurrected. Very simple, and according to the scriptures.

People with the earthly hope and who died will be resurrected during the Millennial Reign. Some who are alive at Armageddon will go right on into the new system without ever dying. It takes a sharp eye to discern these truths, and someone who is willing to think deeply about this. The scriptures actually do not say what has been taught for centuries.
Are there any thoughts on this?

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