Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 1366 by tam]

The Revelation is symbolic and is speaking spiritually.

Many people (and religions) claim that a scripture is symbolic wherever it contradicts their doctrines.



Just sayin'




Peace again to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1368 by tam]

Many people think in a fleshly way about spiritual things. Seeing things spiritually might seem foolish to you but we look at spiritual things spiritually.



JW


Is the New Jerusalem a literal city?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 329#905329

[tam]

Peace again to you,

[Replying to post 1368 by tam]

Many people think in a fleshly way about spiritual things. Seeing things spiritually might seem foolish to you but we look at spiritual things spiritually.



JW

Always with the strawman. Always with the false implications about what I think or feel. You can continue on with such things by yourself. I am not wasting any more time on such games.




Peace still to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1370 by tam]

The point is that you read revelation literally (in a "physical" as in dealing with human dimensions "up" "down" etc, non-symbolic way) as do many atheists I have spoken to, and we do not. Do not impose your human way of seeing scripture on me and I wont force you to see the spiritual significance of the text.

JW




RELATED POSTS

Does Jesus have to be on earth to rule it?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 260#875260

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 1345 by onewithhim]

Indeed, John was speaking to anointed Christians. That was the focus of Jesus and his disciples---to gather the people who would rule with him.

Yes, to gather His Bride, His Body (all those who belong to Him and who will reign with Him).

That focus and that message and that call has not changed.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

SOMETHING is different from what you teach.

Do you mean to say that something is different from what Christ and the apostles taught?

Yes, that is basically what I meant. Taking everything that they said into consideration, it is plain to see that you have missed quite a bit of it and are now preaching things that they did not.

The WTS always takes into consideration ALL that the Scriptures say. Unfortunately you have, thus far, attributed a literal understanding to things that are to be taken symbolically or metaphorically, such as most of the book of Revelation, and the saying that God and Christ will literally come down to this planet and rule here, when elsewhere in the Scriptures there have been many instances where God said he would dwell among the people but he never came down from heaven. I have provided those verses more than once. God can be "with" us without leaving His abode in heaven. The WT understands this, just as they understand that Jesus said he would be "with" his disciples all the days until the end of the world and yet remain in heaven. I trust that you will alter your stance on certain things and realize what is symbolic.

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1358 by tam]

I believe you said that the non-Christians would live on the earth forever. Non-Christians cannot be "righteous."


.

[tam]

Peace again to you,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 1345 by onewithhim]

Indeed, John was speaking to anointed Christians. That was the focus of Jesus and his disciples---to gather the people who would rule with him.

Yes, to gather His Bride, His Body (all those who belong to Him and who will reign with Him).

That focus and that message and that call has not changed.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

SOMETHING is different from what you teach.

Do you mean to say that something is different from what Christ and the apostles taught?

Yes, that is basically what I meant.

I think you misunderstood. Something (from the WTS) is different from what Christ and the apostles teach.

Taking everything that they said into consideration, it is plain to see that you have missed quite a bit of it and are now preaching things that they did not.

Like what?

Neither you nor JW has demonstrated that I have said something that is not (or that is in conflict with) what Christ taught.

The WTS always takes into consideration ALL that the Scriptures say.

This is what the RCC says as well (or at least her members say it) - when something in scripture conflicts with their belief. Same with other religions and people as well. So this is not saying much.

God said to listen to His Son. The Son is the One who opens the scriptures. The Son is the One who will lead His sheep into all truth.

Not the WTS or the RCC or any other man or religion.

Just Christ.

Unfortunately you have, thus far, attributed a literal understanding to things that are to be taken symbolically or metaphorically,

Who declares what is to be taken symbolically or metaphorically? The WTS?

Why should I (or your or anyone) accept what the WTS says, especially when the WTS says things that are in contradiction to Christ?

such as most of the book of Revelation,

All except for the number 144 000, you mean?

The number 144 000 is literal (and it is), but the tribes from whom the number comes are symbolic?

and the saying that God and Christ will literally come down to this planet and rule here, when elsewhere in the Scriptures there have been many instances where God said he would dwell among the people but he never came down from heaven.

The New Jerusalem (which is the Bride) comes down out of heaven from God. That is direct from scripture. That is also what my Lord teaches, and I am going to continue to listen to Him.

I have provided those verses more than once. God can be "with" us without leaving His abode in heaven.

The 'with' us part is not in dispute. Rather it is the words 'come down out of' heaven that are in dispute (at least between us; the words themselves are clear).

I trust that you will alter your stance on certain things and realize what is symbolic

.

I cannot 'realize' something that is not true. Nothing is true simply because the WTS (or any other religion or person) says so.

Something is true if Christ says it.

He is the Truth and the One who has the words of eternal life. He is the One to whom God said to listen.



"This is my Son, my chosen one. Listen to Him."



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace again to you,

[Replying to post 1358 by tam]

I believe you said that the non-Christians would live on the earth forever. Non-Christians cannot be "righteous."


.

That (the bold) is not true. Non-Christians can (and there are those who will) be declared righteous. Based on what they DID, rather than on what they believed (or failed to believe).

I went through this earlier, but here it is again:


For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through [Jesus] Christ, as my gospel declares.



Same with the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable. The sheep (who did not even know that they had done good to Christ) are called righteous by Him- not because they were Christian, not because of what they believed - but because of what they DID.


For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’


They do these things BY NATURE (showing that the requirements of the law - love - are NATURALLY upon their heart).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Peace to you all,


I am just going to add something on the subject of anointing. Because the problem is not the understanding that Christians are anointed with holy spirit.

The problem is the WTS explanation of what it means to be anointed. The WTS connects anointing to a Christian having the 'heavenly hope' (the anointed), versus a Christian who has the 'earthly hope' (non-anointed).

This is not something that Christ or the apostles taught.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I'm afraid they DID. Jesus said that some Christians, like John the Baptist, did not have the heavenly hope. (Matthew 11:11) He called the ones that would be going to heaven the "little flock." (Luke 12:32) Then he said that he had others that were not of that fold, that is, not going to heaven. He called them the "other sheep." (John 10:16) They would be the citizens of God's Kingdom government, living on the earth.

If you know the Bible from front to back, you will know that the whole theme of the Bible is the re-instatement of Paradise on this earth, as Jehovah purposed in the beginning. Jesus died so that humans could live here forever, as Adam was supposed to.

God doesn't need billions of people in heaven to rule. 144,000 is plenty, I would say. The billions of righteous ones will be on the earth enjoying Paradise. Usually there is a ruling class that comprises a government, and a large constituency of people to be governed. It is the same with God's government.

"For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder....His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and for ever." (Isaiah 9:6,7; New Catholic Version/ Douay Confraternity)

"But the just shall inherit the land, and shall dwell therein for evermore." (Psalm 37:29; New Catholic Version)

[Jesus Christ] "who alone has immortality and dwells in light inaccessible, whom no man has seen or can see...." (I Timothy 6:16) Why would Jesus ever want or see the need to leave his glorious abode in heaven to come here to live on this little speck of dust of a planet? What for? Has he had to come here for the last 2 thousand years when he said he'd be "with" us? Apparently he can be "with" us from heaven.


.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you all,


I am just going to add something on the subject of anointing. Because the problem is not the understanding that Christians are anointed with holy spirit.

The problem is the WTS explanation of what it means to be anointed. The WTS connects anointing to a Christian having the 'heavenly hope' (the anointed), versus a Christian who has the 'earthly hope' (non-anointed).

This is not something that Christ or the apostles taught.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I'm afraid they DID. Jesus said that some Christians, like John the Baptist, did not have the heavenly hope. (Matthew 11:11)

Christ did not say this at all. You are putting words in His mouth.

Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

He called the ones that would be going to heaven the "little flock." (Luke 12:32)

He called the disciples (at that time) a little flock; but if you will note, He also said that He had other sheep to call and they would all be ONE FLOCK.

Then he said that he had others that were not of that fold, that is, going to heaven.

You are again adding (the part I bolded) to His words.

He said nothing about these others being those who will not be going to heaven.

He called them the "other sheep." (John 10:16)

As I said earlier (I think to JW) He simply said that He had other sheep to call who were not of that fold (the present Jews from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin). He never said these 'other sheep' would be sheep who have a different hope from the 'little flock'.

God doesn't need billions of people in heaven to rule. 144,000 is plenty, I would say.

Christ is the Ruler over all God's creation. He does not need anyone to rule with Him. Neither God nor Christ need us for anything; but Christ - out of love for His Bride (His Body, His Church) - shares His Kingdom with her.

He does not have to do this, He does not NEED to do this; He does this out of love for her.

The billions of righteous ones will be on the earth enjoying Paradise. Usually there is a ruling class that comprises a government, and a large constituency of people to be governed. It is the same with God's government.

If you are going to remain true to your analogy, then you must also acknowledge that those governments exist in the same place as the people being governed.

How are these 144 000 going to assist Christ in governing the people of the earth, from heaven?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy