Paradise on Earth

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Paradise on Earth

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1801

Post by onewithhim »

I would think that everyone would want to know about a government that God Himself has, one that could and will rid the earth completely of all corruption and evil. People put their trust in men's governments that fail miserably, and will not pay any attention to the possibility of God's own Kingdom/government that will not fail. Most of us are familiar with the Our Father (Lord's Prayer) and have repeated it hundreds of times. What just about everyone doesn't understand is that we are asking for God's own government to come to the earth. The churches never told us that, but now JWs are telling everyone who will listen. God's government by Christ WILL come, and undoubtedly not far in the future.

Revelations won
Sage
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1802

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Onewithhim,

In your OP it appears that you would be satisfied to like on this earth as it was in the garden of eden.

I think that I would take an opposing view.

Please do not misunderstand me on this point. Be assured that I do not question the wonderful beauty of the earth’s condition and paradisiacal state at the time of the creation etc. I understand that you and many others would be fully satisfied to live in that condition.

However, be it so remembered that this present earth and the elements thereof will melt with fervent heat and will pass away (the heavens also).

Do not the scriptures clearly state that there will be a “New heaven and a new earth” created? I for one think it would be of far greater import to live worthy of residing on this new earth with it’s transcendent beauty. Have you ever considered this?

Kind regards,
RW

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1803

Post by onewithhim »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:14 am Dear Onewithhim,

In your OP it appears that you would be satisfied to like on this earth as it was in the garden of eden.

I think that I would take an opposing view.

Please do not misunderstand me on this point. Be assured that I do not question the wonderful beauty of the earth’s condition and paradisiacal state at the time of the creation etc. I understand that you and many others would be fully satisfied to live in that condition.

However, be it so remembered that this present earth and the elements thereof will melt with fervent heat and will pass away (the heavens also).

Do not the scriptures clearly state that there will be a “New heaven and a new earth” created? I for one think it would be of far greater import to live worthy of residing on this new earth with it’s transcendent beauty. Have you ever considered this?

Kind regards,
RW
I have thought about this a lot.

One thing I know---Jehovah will not destroy this earth, and neither will he destroy the literal heavens. It is absurd, in my way of thinking, to think that God would destroy everything and start over. If bad tenants are ruining a house, do you destroy the house or eject the tenants? The "new heavens and new earth" are figuratively referring to the new government (heavens) and the new, righteous society of humans (earth). To make a "new" earth doesn't mean that the one we have is hopeless and will be discarded. Besides the new society, the earth we have now will be made new by cleaning it up and getting rid of all the bad stuff. The planet can renew itself very well if the corruption is stopped. And we will be taking instructions from Jesus as to how to help the planet renew itself. (And why on earth would the literal heavens have to be destroyed? God's going to make a new Sun and new galaxies? Why?)


"Come now and let us reason together, saith the LORD [Jehovah]..." (Isaiah 1:18, KJV)

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1804

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:14 am Dear Onewithhim,

In your OP it appears that you would be satisfied to like on this earth as it was in the garden of eden.

I think that I would take an opposing view.

Please do not misunderstand me on this point. Be assured that I do not question the wonderful beauty of the earth’s condition and paradisiacal state at the time of the creation etc. I understand that you and many others would be fully satisfied to live in that condition.
So would it be fair to say *if* God did say he purposes you to spend eternity living on an earth in the paradisiacal state that existed at the time of the creation, you would tell Him you are dissatified with such an arrangement?

Image



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1805

Post by Tcg »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:12 pm
One thing I know---Jehovah will not destroy this earth, and neither will he destroy the literal heavens. It is absurd, in my way of thinking, to think that God would destroy everything and start over.
Then your way of thinking contradicts the author of 2 Peter's:
3:10 The day of the Lord will come as a robber comes. The heavens will pass away with a loud noise. The sun and moon and stars will burn up. The earth and all that is in it will be burned up.

Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1806

Post by onewithhim »

Tcg wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:33 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:12 pm
One thing I know---Jehovah will not destroy this earth, and neither will he destroy the literal heavens. It is absurd, in my way of thinking, to think that God would destroy everything and start over.
Then your way of thinking contradicts the author of 2 Peter's:
3:10 The day of the Lord will come as a robber comes. The heavens will pass away with a loud noise. The sun and moon and stars will burn up. The earth and all that is in it will be burned up.

Tcg
The author of 2 Peter was not saying that the physical planet and everything in the universe would be destroyed. He was using illustrations to be taken allegorically. Didn't Jesus use illustrations to make a point? He said the Kingdom was like precious pearls....does that mean that the Kingdom is literally pearls? When he said that the religious leaders were headed for "Gehenna," did he mean that they were going to the literal fiery dump that was outside the walls of Jerusalem? If we accept your line of thinking, then that would be the case.

Peter used flowery language to make the point that the "heavens," or, the rulership of men over the earth, would pass away. The word you use for "burned up" is actually one with the meaning of "discovered." The WORKS that are in the earth will be revealed and dealt with, not literally "burned up." The following are some other renditions of 2Peter 3:10:

1) "Jehovah's day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it will be DISCOVERED." (NWT; and the American Standard Version footnote: "The most ancient manuscripts read "DISCOVERED.")

2) "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be LAID BARE." (NIV)

3) "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that day the heavens will disappear with a great rushing sound, the elements will be dissolved in flames, and the earth with all that is in it will be BROUGHT TO JUDGMENT." (Revised English Bible)

4) "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, the day on which the heavens will whiz away and the heavenly bodies will be parched and disintegrated, and the earth and the works in it will be FUEL FOR FIRE." (The Bible in Living English; margin note: "Instead of 'be fuel for fire,' the most ancient copies have "BE FOUND.")

5) "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be FOUND OUT." (Fireside Family Edition of the New American Bible)


I could go on, as I have many translations in my library, but I think these will suffice to show that your rendition is not necessarily the final word. Many versions steer toward the idea that the works that the earth contains---what men have done---will be revealed for the evil that they are.

Indeed, one version that I have (The Orthodox Study Bible) says straight out that the literal heavens and earth are not what Peter is talking about. This versions says: It is "not other heavens and earth, but the same ones transfigured for the better."

Therefore, we can't assume that all this means a literal destruction of the planet. It seems that the focus is on what men have DONE on the planet, with poetic license. Yes, the focus is really on what men have done, as can be seen clearly in verses 6 and 7: "...the world [of Noah's time] suffered destruction [not the literal earth but the wicked people] when it was deluged with water. But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of the destruction of the ungodly men."



So there you have it.

Revelations won
Sage
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1807

Post by Revelations won »

To whom it may concern,

TCG brought out a very powerful point from 2 Peter chapter 3.

Onewithhim then countered Tcg’s post with a “private interpretation” of the scripture using many different bible versions and excluding other Bible versions to prove a point. The various versions used in fact of themselves provide conflicting views.

It is very clear that according to scripture we should be careful to not explain away scriptures by “private interpretations."

I think 2 Peter chapter 1 AND 3 quoted below should set the record straight.

2 Peter 1:

19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.



KJV 2 Peter 3:

3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Peter is telling it simply as it will be. Why is that so hard to understand?

Kind regards,
RW

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1808

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:00 am
Peter is telling it simply as it will be.

Hé is indeed, but its not clear from your post...

1) What did onewithim say that is incorrect?
2) what bible verse do you present to support claim #1?


So far you have only demonstrated you know how to use the bold and underline keys on your computer.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1809

Post by onewithhim »

Yes, RW, what exactly did I say that is incorrect? Please be specific.

Revelations won
Sage
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1810

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Onewithhim,

In your first post you said:

“When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do—endlessly?”

May I ask you on what evidence do you claim that “Adam” forfeited this blessing?

Who made you a judge over the great patriarch Adam?

By what authority do you deny him the privilege of repentance?

By what authority do you deny him the mercy and blessings of the atonement of Jesus Christ?

Did not Jesus Christ atone for the sins of ALL Mankind?

What did Adam do that has in any way denied you any of the blessings and mercy and salvation and resurrection provided by Jesus Christ?

Kind regards,
RW

Post Reply