Paradise on Earth

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Paradise on Earth

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #41

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 3 by catnip]
catnip wrote:
The kingdom of Heaven is right here, it is upon us, among us and within us as Jesus says.
You seem to be saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is in the eye of the beholder. If you believe you are in it.. that's it. You are "in it."

What a marvelous idea.

catnip wrote:
We don't see it except through spiritual eyes, the eyes of faith once reconciled to God. It is spread out upon the earth.
Spiritual eyes...
Yeah, about those....

____________

Questions:

  • 1. Where does childhood diseases fit in to this paradise idea of heaven on earth right now?

    2. I'm an agnostic.. am I in the kingdom of Heaven ?

    3. What are you "seeing" with "Spiritual eyes" that a secular person like myself cannot "see"?

    4. Why is there evil and suffering in the "Kingdom of Heaven"?

    5. What about the concept of "Hell"...?

    6. Are we living eternally in this "Kingdom"?

____________


:smileright: :smileleft:

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #42

Post by catnip »

Blastcat wrote: [Replying to post 3 by catnip]
catnip wrote:
The kingdom of Heaven is right here, it is upon us, among us and within us as Jesus says.
You seem to be saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is in the eye of the beholder. If you believe you are in it.. that's it. You are "in it."

What a marvelous idea.
I think it takes more than simple "belief". I think practice, particularly the practice of prayer as Jesus teaches in Matt 6. I'm a believer in the mystical faith.

catnip wrote:
We don't see it except through spiritual eyes, the eyes of faith once reconciled to God. It is spread out upon the earth.
Spiritual eyes...
Yeah, about those....
This is the promise of faith that so many Christians are absolutely terrified of and manage to overlook in the scriptures when they read it. Heaven only knows how.

Questions:

  • 1. Where does childhood diseases fit in to this paradise idea of heaven on earth right now?


I think you can only see one view of the world at a time, as though you were looking on one side of a wall or the other side. The hope is that the more of us that are spiritually healed, the better the whole world will be. Conversely, the fewer who enter in, the meaner and less healthy the world becomes.

2. I'm an agnostic.. am I in the kingdom of Heaven ?


No, but as Jesus tells those not there yet that it is all around them, among them, upon them and even within them--they need to strive for it.

3. What are you "seeing" with "Spiritual eyes" that a secular person like myself cannot "see"?


If the eye be single . . . we walk by faith, not by sight . . . in short, spiritual vision is not the same as what you perceive through your eyes.

4. Why is there evil and suffering in the "Kingdom of Heaven"?


There isn't any. We are healed by faith or, in other words, we become whole and whole means in union with God and Christ--we become one. This, you will note, is not taught by the newer versions of Christianity.

5. What about the concept of "Hell"...?


Hell is to be apart from God. So, in short, it is not to be in the kingdom of Heaven (God) with the Lord of Hosts. And it means that here in this world we can be in hell with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

6. Are we living eternally in this "Kingdom"?


I think that in the long run we all end up there. In short, there is an eternal aspect to our natures that does not die. Our spirit goes back to God who gave it. The hope is that we can heal this world through faith. In other words: NOW. And yet, I only hold that hope--it may be that some are destined to utter destruction. But see, I take the lake of fire as burning up that which holds us back.

The kingdom we are given is unshakeable; let us therefore give thanks to God and so worship him as he would be worshipped, with reverence and awe; for our God is a devouring fire. Hebrews 12:29, iirc.

Note: I do not believe that it is dependent on one religion but that the great religions teach it. I do believe it is available to non-theists in the here and now Eckhart Tolle, for example. "The kingdom of Heaven (God)" is just the way that Jesus framed it in the Gospels.

[/list][/quote],
____________

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #43

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 42 by catnip]





[center]Where the Kingdom be at?
Part Two :.. Incomprehensible answers[/center]

1. Where does childhood diseases fit in to this paradise idea of heaven on earth right now?
catnip wrote:
The hope is that the more of us that are spiritually healed, the better the whole world will be. Conversely, the fewer who enter in, the meaner and less healthy the world becomes.
The disembodied "hope".
Who's hope are you talking about? Yours, mine or everyone in the universe?

To me, your statement is ambiguous as I can interpret it to mean a few different things. In order for you to understand the magnitude of how confusing I think your answer is, here are some examples of how I can interpret your answer:

________________

Possible interpretations of your answer to question 1.

"I hope that the more people believe that something is true, the more it's going to be true."

Or... it could mean:

"I hope that the more people believe in my God, the less there will be childhood diseases".

It could also mean:

"I really do hope that my beliefs are true"


Or it could mean:

"Childhood diseases are the fault of people who don't have faith in my god."

Or, much much worse, it could even be taken to mean:

" I hope that horrible things like childhood diseases will continue until everyone on the planet has faith in my god".

I don't know for sure if any of these are what you meant.
_________________

2. I'm an agnostic.. am I in the kingdom of Heaven ?
catnip wrote:
No, but as Jesus tells those not there yet that it is all around them, among them, upon them and even within them--they need to strive for it.
Hmmm

Im not IN the kingdom, but you say that:

"it is all around them, among them, upon them and even within them"

I'm not in the Kingdom but it's around me, among me, upon me, and even within me?

If the kingdom of heaven was WATER... using those words, I'd pretty much think that I was in it, alright !

Almost DROWNING in it !!

I'm sorry, but your answer doesn't make sense to me.

3. What are you "seeing" with "Spiritual eyes" that a secular person like myself cannot "see"?
catnip wrote:
If the eye be single . . . we walk by faith, not by sight . . . in short, spiritual vision is not the same as what you perceive through your eyes.
So, when you use the word "seeing", you don't really mean "seeing". Because the word "seeing" usually entails "sight".

I am guessing here that when you used the term "seeing" you meant "having faith".
Is that correct?

So, you were saying that I don't have faith and that you do?

Those who have faith in something, generally do have faith in what they have faith in. And those of us who don't have faith in something generally don't have faith in what they don't have faith in.

Well, if you meant that.. it makes sense.
But all tautologies do.

I don't see the point you are trying to make.
Sorry.

If I didn't understand you correctly then I still don't see the point that you are trying to make. And I'm QUITE sure that you are trying very HARD to make one. It's just that I can't make it out.

So, I wonder if you mean that I'm not in the Kingdom because I don't have faith that I'm in the Kingdom.

You have faith, and I don't.
Is that what you are saying?

4. Why is there evil and suffering in the "Kingdom of Heaven"?
catnip wrote:
There isn't any.
There isn't any evil or suffering in the Kingdom that you say exists RIGHT NOW.

I see suffering and evil easily enough.
Maybe I need those "spiritual eyes" again.

I aint seeing what your seeing.

catnip wrote:
We are healed by faith or, in other words, we become whole and whole means in union with God and Christ--we become one. This, you will note, is not taught by the newer versions of Christianity.
I don't care who is currently teaching what.
I am asking for your opinions.

I also don't know how children suffering from childhood diseases are "healed by faith". Many of them die. In fact, children who grow up mostly die.

But as far as I can tell, people in what you call Hell are being healed by "medical science" when possible. People and children who are INSIDE the Kingdom, probably don't need medical science at all. Must be nice to have perfect bodies that way.

So, right now, I'm guessing that you might not be talking about PHYSICAL childhood diseases... or about PHYSICAL healing... And again, doesn't compute.

I'm completely lost.
And I thought I didn't understand you BEFORE I asked so many questions !
I'm way more confused after I read your answers, I'm afraid.

We have SERIOUS language difficulties !

5. What about the concept of "Hell"...?
catnip wrote:
Hell is to be apart from God. So, in short, it is not to be in the kingdom of Heaven (God) with the Lord of Hosts. And it means that here in this world we can be in hell with weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Two classes of people:
Those who profess to be in the Kingdom ( maybe that's your class ) , and all the others, who don't. ( surely my class )

I'm going to guess here and put you in the first category.. It's just a guess.
I'm completely lost right now.

Apparently, all those who are not in the Kingdom are currently ( or will in the future, I don't really know what you mean ) weeping and gnashing their teeth. Since I'm not an insider to your faith, I must be weeping and gnashing my teeth, or I sure will be in the future.. or something like that. Maybe I need to have those "spiritual eyes" to notice that I'm doing that.

I must be in Hell, even though I never notice it.
Interesting.

Oh well, Hell doesn't seem too bad at all ! If it was really that bad, you'd think I would notice ! I wonder if you think that people IN the Kingdom never get sick or never gnash or cry?

6. Are we living eternally in this "Kingdom"?
catnip wrote:
I think that in the long run we all end up there. In short, there is an eternal aspect to our natures that does not die. Our spirit goes back to God who gave it.
The Kingdom is HERE and NOW, and we will all end up THERE in the LONG RUN.
It's as if you are saying that the here and now is there and then.

Your language is almost impenetrable to this outsider.

catnip wrote:
The hope is that we can heal this world through faith.
"The hope".

I wonder who's hope you are talking about.
I sure don't have that hope...

You have a hope that faith heals childhood diseases.
Do you have a hope that medical science does, too?

Because when it comes to medical science, it's based on evidence.
There IS documentation .... And now for an anecdote: brought my kids to the hospital.. they were healed for some reason. No doctors used faith to heal them, either. It was the mumbo jumbo they like to call "medical science"... That's what people in hell seem to use to heal kids instead of faith, you see.

catnip wrote:
In other words: NOW.
Right.. SOME OF US are already there NOW... you keep saying that and then you also said that "I think that in the long run we all end up there.".

I guess the "hope" is that everyone will be there, because then, the childhood diseases would all be healed. Too bad for all the kids until then, I suppose. If only people like me would believe in your god FOR THE SAKE OF JERRY'S KIDS.

Blastcat should do it for the children, the monster!. Do I WANT them to suffer so needlessly? Don't I KNOW that faith magically heals?

catnip wrote:
And yet, I only hold that hope--it may be that some are destined to utter destruction. But see, I take the lake of fire as burning up that which holds us back.
Oh, so the lake of fire only does us good. It burns away that nasty evil agnostic stuff.
Let's all have the non-believers jump in, then.

Believers don't have to partake in the fun of it.
Too bad for the believers.

I'm not making much sense of this at all...
It's way too rich for me.

If you want more questions, just ask for them.
I'll try my best to formulate questions that might help me understand what it is you are trying to say.


:)

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Post #44

Post by onewithhim »

Gauleiter88 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Gauleiter88 wrote:The problem is that the God of your "scripture" is a primitive tribal chieftain, vain and vindictive. Nothing good, just or loving about him. I think the early Christian Gnostics were right when they rejected him as a false impostor god.
Then why are you asking about Him? I represent the God of the bible and am happy to answer any questions from that position. This sub-forum is one that focuses on discussion on the biblical God, refering to the accepted canon as authoritive, which is why I have addressed the question from that point of view. I can only respectfully suggest you find some early Gnostics and enquire about what happens at death from them, should you so value their position.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS
Thanks for your information on JW beliefs about the soul. I didn't know that before. Incidentally, the Gnostics believed in reincarnation, and so did some other early Christian groups. The Gnostics believed that a human would be reborn into a new human body on earth until his own "Inner Light" had developed spiritually enough to escape from the material world and rejoin the True God, who was the essence of the universe. The God in the Garden of Eden was a defective impostor.
The Gnostics were way off, as most self-proclaimed Christians would agree, and I would like to ask you also: If you are convinced that God is selfish, vindictive & cruel, why are you asking questions about Him?

:-|

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #45

Post by gordsd »

onewithhim wrote: When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden
Although I did once believe it myself, I no longer do, so I want to write this as compassionate as I can. I believe the the story of Adam and Eve is simply a spiritual and allegorical message. For example the two trees: one of knowledge and one of life represent ways of living, whether spiritual, political or kingdoms. Trees are often used allegorically in the Bible—throughout the OT and by Jesus in the gospels. There was no real Adam and Eve from which the human race came from. They are allegorical as well representing how all relationships work, decline or prosper. Also, of course there was no literal Garden of Eden. The Garden, too, is an allegory of spiritual innocence in relationships: with people and God. It seems to me, to interpret the story as historical fact is to completely miss the point of the writer.

I am convinced that the human race has evolved over millions, maybe billions of years very gradually. There is, IMHO, nothing to return to. However, the prophecies concerning the re-appearance of the Garden of Eden can be taken spiritually, allegorically as well. As we learn to live in honest and fair relationships, true to our conscience, spirit of God, represented by the innocent nakedness of Adam and Eve in the Garden, our lives can be filled with happiness, peace and love—which is spiritually, allegorically eating from the tree of life.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #46

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 45 by gordsd]
gordsd wrote: As we learn to live in honest and fair relationships, true to our conscience, spirit of God, represented by the innocent nakedness of Adam and Eve in the Garden, our lives can be filled with happiness, peace and love—which is spiritually, allegorically eating from the tree of life.
Yeah, I'm sure the hundreds of thousands of children that die from malnutrition each year can just fill up on happiness and peace and love...

I personally don't believe anything you just wrote is true and find your conclusions totally unconvincing but I'm also sure you didn't write that post to "convince" anyone but rather to testify to your beliefs. I acknowledge your personal testimony.

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #47

Post by gordsd »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]
hundreds of thousands of children that die from malnutrition each year can just fill up on happiness and peace and love...
Well, the writer of the Genesis account seems to me is saying more than one thing: that there is a way to live which leads to a descent life and a way of heart ache which leads to alienation, and the writer provides an answer for the pain/ alienation from God. However, again, the trees represent more than literal trees, and the Garden itself represents more than a literal Garden of Eden.
I'm also sure you didn't write that post to "convince" anyone
I wrote the response very quickly, but I did want to show that the passage does not have to be interpreted as an historical fact which I think is a mistake.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #48

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 45 by gordsd]
gordsd wrote:
I believe the the story of Adam and Eve is simply a spiritual and allegorical message.
While I really liked your take on the book of Genesis, I do have a question:


You are telling us about how the garden of Eden can be taken as an allegory... for relationships and so on. It makes a lot of sense. My question is... where is the "spiritual" message?

In other words, what do you mean by "spiritual"?


:)

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #49

Post by gordsd »

[Replying to Blastcat]
I believe that there is a personal peace we can have--with our own conscience and in our relationship with others. We can say that peace comes from god or ourselves.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #50

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 49 by gordsd]
gordsd wrote:
I believe that there is a personal peace we can have--with our own conscience and in our relationship with others. We can say that peace comes from god or ourselves.
Peace can be a purely secular idea.. I still don't get what you mean by "spiritual", I'm afraid.

As an agnostic and a skeptic, I also use religious words ... but if someone asks.."Hey, aren't you a seething non-theist? Why are you using that religious word?"

I explain how I use the word... I sometimes describe myself as a Taoist, for example. Not too many people have ever asked me what I mean by the term, but if they did, I would explain that I use it in a secular way, and that doesn't imply any supernatural at all. I'm a secular very weak very peculiar kind of Taoist, if anything.

But it's true.
I use the word "Taoist" in a more philosophical way than religious. Because Taoism IS a real religion with LOTS of supernatural aspects. But when I use the label for myself, it has nothing at all to do with those supernatural aspects.

Now.. I take you to be a secular person.. and here I find that you are using a religious word like "spiritual". Nothing wrong with using a religious word, but I'd just like to know what you mean by it.

My "spirituality" if it can be said to exist .. are feelings of awe and reverence, mostly for nature... and of course, that means people, too. It's like the word "love" or "peace".

I just think that since we are in debate forums with Christians, we should be real careful about religiously loaded words. So, definitions, my friend. I'd say that if we use secular terms for a secular ideas, it would add to clarity.

So, are you espousing religious ideas by your use of "spiritual", or secular ones?
I'm still a bit confused.

:)

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