Paradise on Earth

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Checkpoint
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Re: !"

Post #1621

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:20 am
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:05 pm
During the millennium/ 1000 year rule of Christ ....

#1 Will there be corrupt human governments?
#2 Will there be crime and wicked people oppressing the innocent ?
#3 Will there be hunger, war and pollution ?
#4 Will there be death, disease and human suffering?


JW
Checkpoint wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 10:19 pm
My answer to all such questions is an obvious "yes"

Okay. So where does Christs return fit into the timeline?

Does Christ return and destroy the "goats" judged deserving of everlasting life before during or after the millennium/thousand year rule?
MATTHEW 25: 31-41

When the Son of man+ comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,+ then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep+ on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [...] Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me,+ you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire+ prepared for the Devil and his angels.+


The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.

He will then judge the sheep and goats, as in the passage you quoted.

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Re: !"

Post #1622

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:14 am

The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.


#1 What scriptural support do you have to place Christs return AFTER his 1000 year rule?

#2 Is there any connection between Christs return and the Messianic Kingdom? If so what?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1623

Post by onewithhim »

And, Checkpoint, what does Christ (and his co-rulers) do during the 1,000 years of nothing changing?

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Re: !"

Post #1624

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:10 am
Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:14 am

The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.


#1 What scriptural support do you have to place Christs return AFTER his 1000 year rule?

#2 Is there any connection between Christs return and the Messianic Kingdom? If so what?
The 1000 years is found only in Revelation 20, which has no return of Christ. Therefore, "scriptural support" for which comes before, or which comes after, is not available, as such.

However, when we compare what Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years with what scripture says occurs after the return of Christ, we should have the scriptural support needed for a definitive answer.

What scripture says occurs after his return is the Judgment of all. What Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years is the Judgment of all.
Matthew 25:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Revelation 20:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Same event/different language/ same time/ one and only

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Re: !"

Post #1625

Post by JehovahsWitness »


#1 What scriptural support do you have to place Christs return AFTER his 1000 year rule?
Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:04 pm
.... "scriptural support" for which comes before, or which comes after, is not available, as such.
Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:04 pm
However, when we compare what Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years with what scripture says occurs after the return of Christ, we should have the scriptural support needed for a definitive answer.
Okay, that part is clear, you say there is no "scriptural support" available ....but you will present "the scriptural support".





JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:07 am, edited 5 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: !"

Post #1626

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:04 pm
What Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years is the Judgment of all.
Matthew 25:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Revelation 20:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw . the dead , great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Same event/different language/ same time/ one and only

You seem to be trying to suggest that Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 are describing the same events.

  • Does revelation 20 ever use the term "return" (Greek: erkhomai) the expression Jesus used in Matthew 25?
  • Is there any mention of the angels participating in the process in Revelation 20 as was the case in Matthew 25?
  • Does Revelation 20 really describe a judgement of "everyone" or does it not rather highlight repeatedly it is a judgement of "the dead"?
  • Does Matthew mention people being judged from books?


Objectively speaking apart from the idea of "judgement" there isn't a single element that overlaps between the two passages. Far from the scriptures indicating they are describing the same event, the two passages present different language, different participants, different objects, different methods.... can you answer my 4 questions above and then explain what in the scriptures leads you to conclude they are describing the same event ?






JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:40 am, edited 12 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: !"

Post #1627

Post by tam »

Peace to you!

I just peeked in and see that you are having an interesting continuation of the discussion, and thought I would comment if I may?
Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:04 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:10 am
Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:14 am

The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.


#1 What scriptural support do you have to place Christs return AFTER his 1000 year rule?

#2 Is there any connection between Christs return and the Messianic Kingdom? If so what?
The 1000 years is found only in Revelation 20, which has no return of Christ. Therefore, "scriptural support" for which comes before, or which comes after, is not available, as such.

However, when we compare what Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years with what scripture says occurs after the return of Christ, we should have the scriptural support needed for a definitive answer.

What scripture says occurs after his return is the Judgment of all. What Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years is the Judgment of all.
Matthew 25:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Revelation 20:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Same event/different language/ same time/ one and only

These are two different events.


The first event - the separation of the sheep and the goats (the sheep and the goats being "people of the nations" who are not anointed/not Christians) occurs when Christ returns. Christ does the separating. The goats are not destroyed, they are cast out. And the sheep who are being invited into the Kingdom on the basis of how they (unknowingly) treated Christ ("Whatever you did for a least one of these brothers of mine, you did for me..."), are not Christians (anointed ones). But I have shared this on previous occasions, as I received from my dear Lord.

Also, how can Christians who have come to life at the start of the thousand years, then be among the dead who are resurrected (some to judgment and the second death... and some to life) at the end of the thousand years?


The second event - this is the Judgment, and the Father is the One who sits and judges from the white throne (even though Christ has all authority given to Him, He judges no one, but leaves the judgment to His Father, the Ancient of Days).


One other difference between the two events:

The sheep and the goats are physically alive when Christ returns (and the separation of the sheep and the goats begins). But the dead at the second resurrection are physically dead (hence Death and Hades must give them UP).



If I have misread or misunderstood anything in your exchanges, I apologize, and feel free to disregard (or point out my misunderstanding).


Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: !"

Post #1628

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:04 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:10 am
Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:14 am

The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.


#1 What scriptural support do you have to place Christs return AFTER his 1000 year rule?

#2 Is there any connection between Christs return and the Messianic Kingdom? If so what?
The 1000 years is found only in Revelation 20, which has no return of Christ. Therefore, "scriptural support" for which comes before, or which comes after, is not available, as such.

However, when we compare what Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years with what scripture says occurs after the return of Christ, we should have the scriptural support needed for a definitive answer.

What scripture says occurs after his return is the Judgment of all. What Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years is the Judgment of all.
Matthew 25:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Revelation 20:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Same event/different language/ same time/ one and only
I understand them to be two separate events. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

The important thing to get out of all of this is that Jesus will indeed clean up the mess that this old system has been and bring in an eternity of peace and true security, which only he and his Father can do.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1629

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint, did you answer my question as to what Jesus and his co-rulers would be doing during the thousand years of no changes?

.

Checkpoint
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Re: !"

Post #1630

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:23 am
Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:04 pm
What Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years is the Judgment of all.
Matthew 25:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Revelation 20:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw . the dead , great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Same event/different language/ same time/ one and only

You seem to be trying to suggest that Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 are describing the same events.

  • Does revelation 20 ever use the term "return" (Greek: erkhomai) the expression Jesus used in Matthew 25?
  • Is there any mention of the angels participating in the process in Revelation 20 as was the case in Matthew 25?
  • Does Revelation 20 really describe a judgement of "everyone" or does it not rather highlight repeatedly it is a judgement of "the dead"?
  • Does Matthew mention people being judged from books?


Objectively speaking apart from the idea of "judgement" there isn't a single element that overlaps between the two passages. Far from the scriptures indicating they are describing the same event, the two passages present different language, different participants, different objects, different methods.... can you answer my 4 questions above and then explain what in the scriptures leads you to conclude they are describing the same event ?

JW
Yes, I do suggest both passages are about what scripture calls The Judgment, which it tells us will take place when Jesus comes again, or returns.

Scripture conveys this in various ways, with or without the same details.

With or without, for example, mention of the return or of angels.

Those being judged were dead until wakened by hearing his voice and come out(John 5:28-29), and thus be "standing before the throne"(Revelation 20:12).

What is written in the books may well include those details Jesus gives us in the sheep and goats parable.

It is obvious to me that there is one Judgment of all, which will happen at the second coming, because that is what scripture clearly reads time and time again.

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