Paradise on Earth

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: !"

Post #1631

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:06 pm
It is obvious to me that there is one Judgment of all, which will happen at the second coming, because that is what scripture clearly reads time and time again.
Checkpoint wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:06 pm
Scripture conveys this in various ways, with or without the same details.

How pray tell is scripture conveying that Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 correspond to the same event {quote} "without the same details"?
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Re: !"

Post #1632

Post by Checkpoint »

tam wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:39 am
Peace to you!

I just peeked in and see that you are having an interesting continuation of the discussion, and thought I would comment if I may?
Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:04 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:10 am
Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:14 am

The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.


#1 What scriptural support do you have to place Christs return AFTER his 1000 year rule?

#2 Is there any connection between Christs return and the Messianic Kingdom? If so what?
The 1000 years is found only in Revelation 20, which has no return of Christ. Therefore, "scriptural support" for which comes before, or which comes after, is not available, as such.

However, when we compare what Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years with what scripture says occurs after the return of Christ, we should have the scriptural support needed for a definitive answer.

What scripture says occurs after his return is the Judgment of all. What Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years is the Judgment of all.
Matthew 25:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Revelation 20:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Same event/different language/ same time/ one and only

These are two different events.


The first event - the separation of the sheep and the goats (the sheep and the goats being "people of the nations" who are not anointed/not Christians) occurs when Christ returns. Christ does the separating. The goats are not destroyed, they are cast out. And the sheep who are being invited into the Kingdom on the basis of how they (unknowingly) treated Christ ("Whatever you did for a least one of these brothers of mine, you did for me..."), are not Christians (anointed ones). But I have shared this on previous occasions, as I received from my dear Lord.

Also, how can Christians who have come to life at the start of the thousand years, then be among the dead who are resurrected (some to judgment and the second death... and some to life) at the end of the thousand years?


The second event - this is the Judgment, and the Father is the One who sits and judges from the white throne (even though Christ has all authority given to Him, He judges no one, but leaves the judgment to His Father, the Ancient of Days).


One other difference between the two events:

The sheep and the goats are physically alive when Christ returns (and the separation of the sheep and the goats begins). But the dead at the second resurrection are physically dead (hence Death and Hades must give them UP).



If I have misread or misunderstood anything in your exchanges, I apologize, and feel free to disregard (or point out my misunderstanding).


Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Hi tammy,

Welcome to our current discussion.

You think the two passages are about different events that are 1000 years apart. I think the two are about a one and same event.

As I see your post, you made four points.

My post now will be short and deal with two matters you raised.

I will comment on the other two in separate posts in due course.

Physically dead? Not in either passage. They had been dead, but were not during their judgment. Physically dead people are still in their graves, not "standing before the throne"; Revelation 20:12. All were resurrected; Acts 24:15.

The Son judges no one? Well, what did Jesus say about that?

John 5:

22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
The Lord bless and keep you, Tam.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1633

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:17 am
Checkpoint, did you answer my question as to what Jesus and his co-rulers would be doing during the thousand years of no changes?
No, I did not answer that question, onewithhim.

My answer is, what he and his co-heirs have been doing since the arrival of the Holy Spirit on that Day of Pentecost so long ago.

.

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Re: !"

Post #1634

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:25 pm
Checkpoint wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:06 pm
It is obvious to me that there is one Judgment of all, which will happen at the second coming, because that is what scripture clearly reads time and time again.
Checkpoint wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:06 pm
Scripture conveys this in various ways, with or without the same details.



How pray tell is scripture conveying that Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 correspond to the same event {quote} "without the same details"?
Teachings about the Judgment of all seldom if ever have the same details.

Compare, for example, the two stories Jesus related in Matthew 25.

Two quite different stories on which to base a different teaching emphasis.

That results in different details.

Yet the Judgment details are the same basics. Mankind, two destinies, good and evil, acceptance or rejection.

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Re: !"

Post #1635

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:06 pm
Scripture conveys this in various ways, with or without the same details.
Checkpoint wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:37 am
...the Judgment details are the same basics.

Okay can you point out the specific "judgment details" which are the same basics so we can all compare "the judgment details" of Matthew 25 and "the judgment details" of Revelation 20 and see the ones that are the same for ourselves.

I see none.



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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: !"

Post #1636

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:28 am
Checkpoint wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:06 pm
Scripture conveys this in various ways, with or without the same details.
Checkpoint wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:37 am
...the Judgment details are the same basics.

Okay can you point out the specific "judgment details" which are the same basics so we can all compare "the judgment details" of Matthew 25 and "the judgment details" of Revelation 20 and see the ones that are the same for ourselves.

I see none.

JW
Yes I can. I see two, at least.

Mankind:

Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him,

Revelation 20:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne,

Two destinies, acceptance or rejection

Matthew 25:

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Revelation 20:

12 Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1637

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yes a judgement of at least some humans. Fine.


Is there anything that imposes they must be chronologically the same judgements ?




Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:04 pm
However, when we compare what Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years with what scripture says occurs after the return of Christ, we should have the scriptural support needed for a definitive answer.



JW
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: !"

Post #1638

Post by tam »

Peace to you Checkpoint,
Checkpoint wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:14 am


As I see your post, you made four points.

My post now will be short and deal with two matters you raised.
I'm just going to deal with the one matter that you comment upon for the moment if that is all right (and later we can continue on to the next one in a separate post)?


Physically dead? Not in either passage. They had been dead, but were not during their judgment. Physically dead people are still in their graves, not "standing before the throne"; Revelation 20:12. All were resurrected; Acts 24:15.

These physically dead people were in their graves... then they are standing before the throne... because Hades ("Hell", the world of the dead) is described as having given them up.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw he dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Hades (Sheol; the world of the dead) is emptied out at the second resurrection (the dead in Hades are given UP). These are the physically dead who have been resurrected (this is the only resurrection of the dead that Israel had been expecting, Acts 24:15, without understanding that there would also be a first resurrection). This second resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, both the righteous and the wicked, the great and the small, some are resurrected to life and some are resurrected to judgment and the second death.

The separation of the sheep and the goats deals with people (non-Christians/non-anointed) who are alive when Christ returns. The resurrection and judgment of the dead (great and small; righteous and wicked) deals with those who have died and who are in Hades (the world of the dead), from Adam onward.


Once again, if Christians (anointed ones) are alive at the start of the thousand years (with the first resurrection)... how then can they be counted among the dead at the end of the thousand years?




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1639

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:03 am
Yes a judgement of at least some humans. Fine.

Is there anything that imposes they must be chronologically the same judgements ?






Checkpoint wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:04 pm
However, when we compare what Revelation 20 says occurs after the 1000 years with what scripture says occurs after the return of Christ, we should have the scriptural support needed for a definitive answer.



JW
That is hard to say, right now.

Is there anything that imposes they must be chronologically different judgements ?

Is

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1640

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:03 am
Yes a judgement of at least some humans. Fine.

Is there anything that imposes they must be chronologically the same judgements ?
Checkpoint wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:32 pm
That is hard to say, right now.
Well when you do find it easier to say, do feel free to post on the question. and perhaps we can continue to pursue your line of reasoning.



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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