Paradise on Earth

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Paradise on Earth

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Post by onewithhim »

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

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Re: !"

Post #1681

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tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:45 pm
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:52 pm Christians (anointed ones) are not among the dead (great and small) standing before the great throne at the judgment (at the second resurrection).
Well, now... :) ... that depends on what you mean by "dead"
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does. For the reasons I stated above. You can disagree; that's fine with me.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Christians (anointed ones) are not among the dead (great and small), no matter how you interpret 'dead'.

You asked me to answer the question I asked Checkpoint. But the question does not apply to me. Because I am not the one claiming that the people (Christians;anointed ones) who are resurrected and alive at the start of the thousand years are then also the dead (great and small) at the end of the thousand years.
But you and Checkpoint BOTH get the nature of the "thousand years" wrong, so your own question does apply, even to yourself. There are Christians and non-Christians dead -- physically dead -- right now. To think not is to be totally detached from reality, which I know you are not. At the time of Christ's return, all the physically dead -- Christian and non-Christian alike -- will be resurrected. This is the second (final) resurrection. The "thousand years" is not a literal, future-only, 1000-year period. It's not. We are in the midst of it, and the following two things have been happening since Christ's ascension, are happening, and will continue to happen until His return:

1. People coming to Christ, having experienced the first resurrection, which is spiritual in nature
2. People dying -- Christians and non-Christians alike -- and thus in need of physical resurrection, which is the second resurrection
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm
All of us, Christian or not, will be present for the Judgment.

Christians have already been given life (in Christ); there is no judgment for them; they are covered in the blood of the lamb. They might be present at the judgment, I do not know...

I agree! But they will have to have PHYSICAL LIFE restored to them, Tammy. This is the SECOND RESURRECTION. And yes, we will be present at the Judgment -- on Christ's proverbial right.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm ...but they are not the ones being resurrected (some to life and some to judgment and the second death).

Christians who are physically dead -- not spiritually, but physically -- will be resurrected at the second resurrection, along with those who have physically died and never came to Christ. The latter group never experience the first resurrection, which is spiritual in nature. They were never born again, and thus never received new life by and in the Holy Spirit.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm
All those who have physically died will have been physically resurrected upon Jesus's return.

No.
Yep.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Upon His return, those who are in Christ (but who died) are resurrected (this is the first resurrection)
Nope. The second.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm ... those who are alive who are in Christ are caught up to meet them in the sky (1Corinth 15:51-52; 1 Thess 4:16, 17).

Note that there is no judgment happening at this time. There is a marriage that is taking place: the wedding between the Lamb and His Bride.
Ah, such an interesting take. I agree that no judgment is happening at this time... just yet. But nether is the wedding of the Lamb and His Bride... yet. What is happening in this particular verse is that those who are alive are going out to meet Him in His coming and escort Him in, as all "subjects" do when royalty returns. The Biblical precedent for this is manyfold, most notably upon Christ's triumphant entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday.
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:45 pm I am going to point something out that I was just reminded of as well:

From the first resurrection:

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

From verse 5, the part that I highlighted and bolded... note that it states that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years are ended. This is clearly making a distinction between those who come to life in the first resurrection and those who come to life in the second resurrection. So how can this be talking about the same people?
I'm not saying it's talking about the same people. Some of the same people are included, but the two groups are not exactly the same. I'm not sure how I conveyed that I am and/or how you understood that I was, but I agree, there is a clear distinction. Again:

1a. Those who came to life in the first resurrection are those who were born again (as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:2), who were raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (as Paul says in Ephesians 2:6) during their physical lives. You and I, though our physical lives have not yet ended, have experience this, the first resurrection. We are no longer dead in our sin. This is the spiritual resurrection.

1b. "(T)he rest of the dead" at the beginning of Revelation 20:5 refers to those who are still physically alive up to just before the time of Christ's return. This group of people, distinct from the group described in 1a above, are part of the Elect and will experience the first resurrection at that time and become Christians. Their hearts will be converted -- they will be born again; a spiritual resurrection -- at that time. This, too, is the first resurrection. These will have come to life in Christ "after the thousand years has ended."

NOTE: 1b also implies (means) that there will be many who are still alive at the time of Jesus's return whose hearts will not be converted, will not be born again, and will continue to deny Christ and thus not receive salvation.

2. Surely you will agree that, assuming Christ's return is after our physical death, we (our physical bodies) will also -- along with those who did not experience the first resurrection during their lives -- be in need of physical, bodily resurrection. Upon Christ's return, there will be this physical resurrection -- just as Christ's resurrection was very physical. At this point, our spirits, which will have been with Christ since our physical deaths, will be reunited with our physical bodies. This will be the case for previously deceased non-Christians as well, the difference being that their spirits will have not been with Christ.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:52 pm A resurrection requires a person to have been deceased.
Right! You, though physically alive, were one dead in your sin. I quoted Paul in Ephesians 2:6 above ("raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"), and here I will quote him from the immediately preceding verse (5) which is the first part of the same sentence -- "...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace (we) have been saved..." So, let me quote the Paul's whole sentence there:
  • "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved -- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." (emphasis added)
Do you see? Until we became Christians, though physically alive... WE WERE DEAD. We have been resurrected in Christ, which is the first resurrection.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:52 pm We have life in us if Christ (the LIFE) is in us, yes. But that is not the resurrection. Not the first or the second.
It's because for us, the first resurrection has occurred. We have been raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Yes, this is the first resurrection.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:52 pm Yes, we are alive in Christ - because Christ - the LIFE - is in us. And we know that even if we die (physically) we will live (because of Christ).
Right right right... See above.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:52 pm You are having a hypothetical conversation with yourself, dear Pinseeker.
LOL! Right, because I can anticipate your very words. No need to actually say them. :)

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

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Re: !"

Post #1682

Post by tam »

Peace to you Pinseeker,

PinSeeker wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:48 pm
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:45 pm
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:52 pm Christians (anointed ones) are not among the dead (great and small) standing before the great throne at the judgment (at the second resurrection).
Well, now... :) ... that depends on what you mean by "dead"
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does. For the reasons I stated above. You can disagree; that's fine with me.
I explained why it did not matter to MY response, Pinseeker. If you choose to ignore that, what can I do?
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Christians (anointed ones) are not among the dead (great and small), no matter how you interpret 'dead'.

You asked me to answer the question I asked Checkpoint. But the question does not apply to me. Because I am not the one claiming that the people (Christians;anointed ones) who are resurrected and alive at the start of the thousand years are then also the dead (great and small) at the end of the thousand years.
But you and Checkpoint BOTH get the nature of the "thousand years" wrong, so your own question does apply, even to yourself.
First, Checkpoint seems to agree with you on the nature of the thousand years.

Second, no the question does not apply to me. The question I asked does not apply to me because I did not make the claim that the dead (great and small) at the end of the thousand years, are the same people as those who were resurrected to life at the start of the thousand years.

There are Christians and non-Christians dead -- physically dead -- right now.


Indeed.

At the time of Christ's return, all the physically dead -- Christian and non-Christian alike -- will be resurrected. This is the second (final) resurrection.


At the time of Christ's return, Christians who have died are resurrected... and Christians who are yet alive will be caught up to meet them in the sky. Paul describes this in Corinthians and Thessalonians (and I listed those verses in the past couple responses so will not do so again here). There is no mention of non-Christians being resurrected when Christ returns. The sheep and the goats are not described as being resurrected. They are people who are alive on the earth when Christ returns.

The "thousand years" is not a literal, future-only, 1000-year period. It's not. We are in the midst of it,
I have shared reasons why this cannot be true in my previous posts.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm
All of us, Christian or not, will be present for the Judgment.

Christians have already been given life (in Christ); there is no judgment for them; they are covered in the blood of the lamb. They might be present at the judgment, I do not know...

I agree! But they will have to have PHYSICAL LIFE restored to them, Tammy. This is the SECOND RESURRECTION. And yes, we will be present at the Judgment -- on Christ's proverbial right.
A - You seem to be mixing up the separation of the sheep and the goats with the second resurrection/judgment. These are two different things (as previous posts have explained).
B - We (who are Christian) receive the new body in the first resurrection (I think we both accept that Christians will be given the new body when Christ returns).

PinSeeker wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:45 pm I am going to point something out that I was just reminded of as well:

From the first resurrection:

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

From verse 5, the part that I highlighted and bolded... note that it states that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years are ended. This is clearly making a distinction between those who come to life in the first resurrection and those who come to life in the second resurrection. So how can this be talking about the same people?
I'm not saying it's talking about the same people. Some of the same people are included, but the two groups are not exactly the same.



NONE of the same people are included Pinseeker. That is why there is a distinction. You can try and spin it, but the distinction is there for a reason and it is SO simple.

Note: the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ENDED.

So, not during the thousand years so as to reign with Christ during that time.

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ENDED.

The first resurrection is for those who will reign with Christ for the thousand years. It is what Paul referred to in Corinthians and Thessalonians. The rest of the dead are outside of that group. The second resurrection is for the rest of the dead (so NONE of those who participated in the first resurrection), and they do not come to life until the thousand years are ENDED... aka... OVER.


This is simple, Pinseeker!

2. Surely you will agree that, assuming Christ's return is after our physical death, we (our physical bodies) will also -- along with those who did not experience the first resurrection during their lives -- be in need of physical, bodily resurrection. Upon Christ's return, there will be this physical resurrection -- just as Christ's resurrection was very physical. At this point, our spirits, which will have been with Christ since our physical deaths, will be reunited with our physical bodies. This will be the case for previously deceased non-Christians as well, the difference being that their spirits will have not been with Christ.
We will receive the new body, the white robe (no sin and no death in it), when Christ returns. That would be the body that we (who are still alive) will be changed into, in a twinkling, as Paul describes it.

Please note that the description of the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) there is a) no description of spirits being reunited with physical bodies... and b) the dead are described as having been given up by Death and hades (the world of the dead). Are you suggesting that Christians who died are in Hades, the world of the dead? Of course not! They are 'under the altar'. They come WITH Christ when He returns and then we (who are in Christ) who are alive at that time will be caught up to meet them in the sky.



tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:52 pm We have life in us if Christ (the LIFE) is in us, yes. But that is not the resurrection. Not the first or the second.
It's because for us, the first resurrection has occurred. We have been raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Yes, this is the first resurrection.
Speaking TO Christians, Christ said the following (from Rev 2 and 3):

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Not... I have given... but I will give.

We have holy spirit as a deposit, a token, a promise, a guarantee of things to come. Paul knew that.

Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, 22placed His seal on us, and put His spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:52 pm You are having a hypothetical conversation with yourself, dear Pinseeker.
LOL! Right, because I can anticipate your very words. No need to actually say them. :)
I would not have said what you had me saying.


Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

And to you as well, dear Pinseeker,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: !"

Post #1683

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #1678]

I'm just going to point some things out. You think that Satan is merely 'bound from' deceiving the nations (though you admit that he can deceive people, which nations are made up OF; and you admit that he is freely roaming about).

But in the abyss, he is not free to roam about:

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete.


During the thousand years, Satan is bound... thrown into the abyss, and it is shut and sealed over him. He is not free to roam about. He is not free to deceive nations (or the people that make up those nations), because he is shut and sealed inside the abyss.


But at the moment, and as you also acknowledge, the Adversary is roaming about, he is deceiving people (who make up the nations), most of the world is deceived. If we were already in the thousand years, that could not be happening.

The thousand years has not yet begun.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: !"

Post #1684

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tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm I explained why it did not matter to MY response, Pinseeker.
That you did, and I explained to you why it really does matter, whether you realize it or not.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm If you choose to ignore that, what can I do?
I don't ignore anything anybody says, Tammy.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm First, Checkpoint seems to agree with you on the nature of the thousand years.
I don't think so, I think he's pretty much where you are.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Second, no the question does not apply to me. The question I asked does not apply to me because I did not make the claim that the dead (great and small) at the end of the thousand years, are the same people as those who were resurrected to life at the start of the thousand years.
Okay, well, it does apply to you, though, but in a different way. You don't realize it. I understand. No offense intended.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm At the time of Christ's return, Christians who have died are resurrected... and Christians who are yet alive will be caught up to meet them in the sky.
Agreed.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Paul describes this in Corinthians and Thessalonians. There is no mention of non-Christians being resurrected when Christ returns.
Right, because Paul is only speaking in those letters to Christians -- the Church at Corinth and Thessalonica, respectively. He's calming their fears -- especially in the case of Thessalonicans -- and assuring all Christians, including us today -- that our victory is secure in Christ. These are personal letters to the members of these churches; there is no reason to mention non-Christians in either of these two places. If I write a personal letter to one of my friends about a future reunion with a long-lost brother, I'm not going to mention some other family or group of people, because they have no relevance to the joyful anticipation I'm conveying. It's much the same, here.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm The sheep and the goats are not described as being resurrected. They are people who are alive on the earth when Christ returns.
Well, all who are still alive and all who have previously died and been resurrected. All will be judged. All.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm
The "thousand years" is not a literal, future-only, 1000-year period. It's not. We are in the midst of it,
I have shared reasons why this cannot be true in my previous posts.
Right, and I have shared with you why you are mistaken. But this is a centuries-old debate (but the pre-tribulation view has only been around since about 1830) and will not be resolved by you and I here.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm A - You seem to be mixing up the separation of the sheep and the goats with the second resurrection/judgment. These are two different things (as previous posts have explained).

Well, as per your mistaken opinion, as I said. Yes, I agree that the second resurrection is a separate event from the Judgment, but the Judgment will immediately follow the second resurrection, which is physical -- ALL will be resurrected, albeit not for the same purpose, as you have said and with which I also agree. Jesus's explanation of the final Judgment in Matthew 25 (vv. 31-46) is very clear. Again, both the second resurrection and the Judgment will concern EVERYONE, Christian and non-Christian alike. The difference between the two groups is that we, as Christians, will have an Advocate -- Christ Himself -- whereas non-Christians will have no one to rely on but themselves, and they will not stand. This is the separation of the sheep and the goats at the final Judgment. The goats will be sent outside the camp -- as is the case with the Azazel goat sent away into wilderness in Leviticus 16 (yes, this had immediate implications for the Israelites, but also pointed forward to Jesus's atonement on the cross and also forward from that to the final Judgment. In this way, Israel is finally purified. This is the final Judgment.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm B - We (who are Christian) receive the new body in the first resurrection

Nope. Second. We disagree.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm I think we both accept that Christians will be given the new body when Christ returns.
Yes.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm NONE of the same people are included Pinseeker.
That's incorrect. Maybe because we're talking about two different things. In the Judgment, all -- ALL -- will be included. We will all be judged according to our works; God will repay each one according to his deeds (Romans 2:6). This is the Judgment. We disagree. You are read
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm That is why there is a distinction. You can try and spin it, but the distinction is there for a reason and it is SO simple.
I agreed that there is indeed a distinction to make regarding Revelation 20. I agree that there is a reason for it (everything in Scripture is there for a reason; God meant what He said and said what He meant). I don't "spin" anything.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Note: the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ENDED. So, not during the thousand years so as to reign with Christ during that time. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ENDED.
Right, and as I said, these are those Elect who are saved at Christ's return, whose hearts are converted at the close of the "thousand years."
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm The first resurrection is for those who will reign with Christ for the thousand years.
Right, but they don't reign with Him for the full Millennial Reign. Some are converted early on, and some are converted at all times through the Millennial reign. It is a misunderstanding that ALL reign with Christ for the full Millennium. This IS HAPPENING over the full Millennial period. You and I, having been converted to Christ and thus born again, are reigning with Christ in the Spirit (and in spirit) right now, and the Millennium had already been inaugurated before our conversions. This is what is happening over the full "thousand years."
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm It is what Paul referred to in Corinthians and Thessalonians.
No, it's no, Tammy. See above. I don't care whether you agree with me or not; my only concern is that you agree with God and what He has said, which I know you do in principle, but you are mistaken about what He has said here.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm The rest of the dead are outside of that group. The second resurrection is for the rest of the dead (so NONE of those who participated in the first resurrection), and they do not come to life until the thousand years are ENDED... aka... OVER.
I agree. At the end of the Millennium. I agree. You don't think I do, but that's because you are not understanding what I'm saying. "The rest of the dead" in Revelation 20 are members of the Elect that don't "come to life" until the end of the "thousand years."
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm This is simple, Pinseeker!
Right, I agree, so the question is, why do some Christians make it so convoluted? It's because of their dispensational view/understanding of Scripture, which is wrong. That's not to say Christians with this understanding are "dumb," or any less intelligent than anyone else, but just mistaken.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm We will receive the new body, the white robe (no sin and no death in it), when Christ returns. That would be the body that we (who are still alive) will be changed into, in a twinkling, as Paul describes it.
Yes, Christ will make all things new, as in Revelation 21:5. But we can live that way now, as if we are totally new; this is what Paul exhorts us to do in Ephesians 4:24 (among other places), to "put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Not... I have given... but I will give.
Right, but it's a certainty, so we can live now as if it's already been done. And it has been, in Christ; we are seated in spirit in the heavenly places with Christ right now, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, as I pointed out -- as a result of the first resurrection, which happens during the physical lives of each member of the Elect at God's appointed time.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm We have holy spirit as a deposit, a token, a promise, a guarantee of things to come. Paul knew that.
Well, we have THE Holy Spirit, our Helper, the third Person of the triune Jehovah.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

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Re: !"

Post #1685

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tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:36 pm Peace to you,

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #1678]

I'm just going to point some things out. You think that Satan is merely 'bound from' deceiving the nations (though you admit that he can deceive people, which nations are made up OF; and you admit that he is freely roaming about).

But in the abyss, he is not free to roam about:

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete.


During the thousand years, Satan is bound... thrown into the abyss, and it is shut and sealed over him. He is not free to roam about. He is not free to deceive nations (or the people that make up those nations), because he is shut and sealed inside the abyss.
This is the well-worn argument of dispensational Christians. It is incorrect. Yes, individuals make up the nations, but the dispensational understanding of that is not merely simple, but overly simplistic. Satan is bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed. There is a clear distinction to be made between the nations (each one as a whole) and individual people, who are only within those nations and citizens or subjects of them. Just look at any nation in the Middle East, for example. Most of them are Islamic states, but there are Christians within them, and there have been and will be more and more over time. Never a majority, but I would suggest that truly regenerate Christians will never be in the majority in any nation. Satan cannot deceive the nations; cannot stop the spread of the Gospel and God's building of the whole house of Israel. He is bound from doing this.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:36 pm But at the moment, and as you also acknowledge, the Adversary is roaming about, he is deceiving people (who make up the nations), most of the world is deceived. If we were already in the thousand years, that could not be happening.
In this way -- trying to deceive individual members of God's creation -- Satan has always and will continue to act under God's authority, in exactly the same way as he did with Job. God allowed Satan access to Job. This has nothing to do with Satan being bound from deceiving the nations, although at that time, he could in fact do that, as he was not yet bound. Since the advent of Jesus, though, he surely has been. So yes, this can be happening, and is, in the Millennium, in which we are presently in the midst of.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:36 pm The thousand years has not yet begun.
It has. It did 2000+ years ago, this Millennium referred to in Revelation 20.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

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Re: !"

Post #1686

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:00 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm I explained why it did not matter to MY response, Pinseeker.
That you did, and I explained to you why it really does matter, whether you realize it or not.
I respectfully suggest that you take another read-through, because you have clearly misunderstood.

If person A says the car is blue, and person B says the car is yellow... the question "Why do you say the car is blue?" only applies to person A.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm First, Checkpoint seems to agree with you on the nature of the thousand years.
I don't think so, I think he's pretty much where you are.
Again, you may want to take a step back and another read-through, because you have misunderstood.

Checkpoint has said in this thread:
That is, a spiritual resurrection in this life that results from our repentance and saving faith, without which our destiny is the second Death, but with which we will literally be raised from the dead to life eternal.
and
The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.
**
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Second, no the question does not apply to me. The question I asked does not apply to me because I did not make the claim that the dead (great and small) at the end of the thousand years, are the same people as those who were resurrected to life at the start of the thousand years.
Okay, well, it does apply to you, though, but in a different way. You don't realize it. I understand. No offense intended.
Sorry, Pinseeker, but this makes no sense. I did not say the car is blue.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm At the time of Christ's return, Christians who have died are resurrected... and Christians who are yet alive will be caught up to meet them in the sky.
Agreed.
This is not what is being described at the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead).

From the previous post (you did not respond to this part):

Please note that the description of the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) there is a) no description of spirits being reunited with physical bodies... and b) the dead are described as having been given up by Death and hades (the world of the dead). Are you suggesting that Christians who died are in Hades, the world of the dead? Of course not! They are 'under the altar'. They come WITH Christ when He returns and then we (who are in Christ) who are alive at that time will be caught up to meet them in the sky.

tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Paul describes this in Corinthians and Thessalonians. There is no mention of non-Christians being resurrected when Christ returns.
Right, because Paul is only speaking in those letters to Christians -- the Church at Corinth and Thessalonica, respectively. He's calming their fears -- especially in the case of Thessalonicans -- and assuring all Christians, including us today -- that our victory is secure in Christ. These are personal letters to the members of these churches; there is no reason to mention non-Christians in either of these two places. If I write a personal letter to one of my friends about a future reunion with a long-lost brother, I'm not going to mention some other family or group of people, because they have no relevance to the joyful anticipation I'm conveying. It's much the same, here.
That's fine. I am, however, pointing out that it is not mentioned anywhere in conjunction with the resurrection of those who are in Christ (at His return).
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm The sheep and the goats are not described as being resurrected. They are people who are alive on the earth when Christ returns.
Well, all who are still alive and all who have previously died and been resurrected. All will be judged. All.
A - There is no judgment for those who are in Christ.

B - What you are claiming is not what is written in the sheep and the goats. You are adding to what is written there. In fact, neither the sheep nor the goats are Christian. Christians do not enter into the Kingdom on the basis of what they did for even a least one of His brothers - non Christians enter the Kingdom on the basis of what they have done for even a least one of His brothers, because what one does for a least one of His brothers, one does for Him. What Christian does not know that? And yet, the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable did not know it... they had to ask, "Lord when did we feed you, or see you naked and clothe you...?"

As well, Christians are among His brothers... and Christians have already been caught up to meet Him in the sky when He returns, and changed (in a twinkling) into the new body. They are not among the nations to be gathered before Him. They are already with Him at this time.


tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm A - You seem to be mixing up the separation of the sheep and the goats with the second resurrection/judgment. These are two different things (as previous posts have explained).

Well, as per your mistaken opinion, as I said. Yes, I agree that the second resurrection is a separate event from the Judgment, but the Judgment will immediately follow the second resurrection, which is physical --


I meant that the separation of the sheep and the goats is a separate event from the judgment.
ALL will be resurrected, albeit not for the same purpose, as you have said and with which I also agree. Jesus's explanation of the final Judgment in Matthew 25 (vv. 31-46) is very clear.
This is not the final judgment and there is no resurrection (of the dead) at this time. Nothing of what you are saying is clear from the story of the sheep and the goats.

And non-Christians can certainly do good to Christ (unknowingly) by doing good to even a least one of His brothers.

Again, both the second resurrection and the Judgment will concern EVERYONE, Christian and non-Christian alike. The difference between the two groups is that we, as Christians, will have an Advocate -- Christ Himself -- whereas non-Christians will have no one to rely on but themselves, and they will not stand.
We have an advocate in Christ, yes, and His blood covers us so that we have forgiveness of sins. Hence, no judgment, for we (who are in Christ) have life in Him.

Everyone else will be judged on the basis of their deeds: the sheep and the goats story gives the criteria (and some will enter who would did not realize they would enter or that they had done anything for Christ)... and at the final judgment those who resurrected from the dead will be judged on the basis of their deeds (from their lives). Some of these will also be given life. None of these (and none of the sheep) are Christian. They are people of the nations who have done the requirements of the law - by NATURE - proving that the law (love - which covers a multitude of sins) is written upon their hearts.

Paul speaks of them in Romans 2.

**

As to the 'rest of the dead' being separate from those who take part in the first resurrection, I have nothing new to add, and so will leave what has been said to stand.

**
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm We have holy spirit as a deposit, a token, a promise, a guarantee of things to come. Paul knew that.
Well, we have THE Holy Spirit, our Helper, the third Person of the triune Jehovah.
There is no third person; nor is there a 'triune Jehovah'.

There is the Father, whose name is JAH, who is the MOST Holy One of Israel (represented in the Temple by the MOST Holy Place).
There is the Son, whose name is Jaheshua, who is the HOLY One of Israel (represented in the Temple by the HOLY place, and no one comes to the MOST Holy except through the HOLY). He is the Holy One of God.
There is holy spirit, which has no name, which is the breath, blood and seed of JAH, also known as the water of life (which is poured out from Christ, to whomever He chooses, which the Father has given to Him without end).



Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

Peace also to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Peace to you Pinseeker,

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #1685]


You skipped right over the point. Satan is not just "bound". He is thrown into the abyss (a place, see Rev 9) which is then shut and sealed over him. He is not released until the thousand years are ended. He is not roaming about during the thousand years. He is imprisoned in the abyss (a place).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:48 pm Peace to you Pinseeker,

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #1685]


You skipped right over the point. Satan is not just "bound". He is thrown into the abyss (a place, see Rev 9) which is then shut and sealed over him. He is not released until the thousand years are ended. He is not roaming about during the thousand years. He is imprisoned in the abyss (a place).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Yes, Satan is completely put out of business for 1,000 years. That is what makes the Millennial Reign a taste of Paradise. We will be free from his influence, to build a beautiful life for ourselves with true peace and security---not like the nations now offer or ever could offer. We will be perfect at the end of the 1,000 years and fully equipped to face our final test, which Satan will throw in front of us after he is loosed from his prison/abyss. Wouldn't everyone here be glad to have the chance to spurn Satan and stand on Jehovah's side? Wouldn't we all appreciate a beautiful earth in Paradise conditions?

.

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tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm I respectfully suggest that you take another read-through, because you have clearly misunderstood.
I understand your position. I would say the same to you.
tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm Checkpoint has said in this thread: The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.
Well good for him, then. Either he has changed his opinion, or I have him mixed up with another poster. I would like to hear him expound on this, though, because there are post-millennial believers, too, and they are just as mistaken as pre-millennial believers.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Second, no the question does not apply to me. The question I asked does not apply to me because I did not make the claim that the dead (great and small) at the end of the thousand years, are the same people as those who were resurrected to life at the start of the thousand years.
Okay, well, it does apply to you, though, but in a different way. You don't realize it. I understand. No offense intended.[/quote]
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm
At the time of Christ's return, Christians who have died are resurrected... and Christians who are yet alive will be caught up to meet them in the sky.
Agreed.
This is not what is being described at the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead). [/quote]
Well, yes it is. But only partly, actually. Everyone else (unbelievers) will be resurrected at that time, also. But they will not go out to meet Jesus in His return as we will.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Please note that the description of the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) there is a) no description of spirits being reunited with physical bodies... and b) the dead are described as having been given up by Death and hades (the world of the dead). Are you suggesting that Christians who died are in Hades, the world of the dead? Of course not! They are 'under the altar'. They come WITH Christ when He returns and then we (who are in Christ) who are alive at that time will be caught up to meet them in the sky.
I agree with you here, Tammy. No, Christ who have died are not in the world of the dead, but rather seated in the heavenly places with Christ (as I have said several times). So, no. But non-Christians who have died... are.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm I am... pointing out that it is not mentioned anywhere in conjunction with the resurrection of those who are in Christ (at His return).
Okay, accepted, but I would say, speaking specifically about Revelation 20, that those who are not in Christ is clearly implied in verses 12 and 13, as they are standing before the throne... and are judged, each one of them. They could not be standing and being judged had they not also been physically resurrected. You may still deny this, and that's your prerogative, but remember, Jesus Himself said, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm There is no judgment for those who are in Christ.
Well, yes and no. No, in that everyone is judged according to what He has done. In Matthew 25, Jesus clearly portrays the judgment of those on His right, those that are in Him. But yes, in that we will have an Advocate at the Judgment, the One Who bore the judgment on our behalf -- Jesus, on the cross. I guess to put what you say really correctly, we will be judged, but we will not have to endure the Judgment, God's condemnation, and the second death. Perhaps this is what you are saying. If so, then good.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm B - What you are claiming is not what is written in the sheep and the goats. You are adding to what is written there. In fact, neither the sheep nor the goats are Christian.
Tammy, those who are Christ's are described as sheep all through the Bible. Jesus Himself says, "I know my sheep, and my sheep hear My voice." Christians are most definitely the sheep of Matthew 25:33-40.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Christians do not enter into the Kingdom on the basis of what they did for even a least one of His brothers...
Not on the basis of it, no. But this is not what I'm intimating. Our works are the direct result of our hearts having been converted from stone to flesh, from the Spirit's working of faith in us and giving us new life in Christ.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm non Christians enter the Kingdom on the basis of what they have done for even a least one of His brothers, because what one does for a least one of His brothers, one does for Him. What Christian does not know that?
Non-Christians, Tammy -- goats, as described in Matthew 25:41-45 -- do not enter into the kingdom at all. These are the ones on His left at the Judgment, to whom He says, "Depart from me, you cursed..." Any Christian who doesn't get that is really lacking in understanding. No less a Christian (if their hearts are truly converted), but lacking in understanding just the same.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm And yet, the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable did not know it... they had to ask, "Lord when did we feed you, or see you naked and clothe you...?"
LOL! It's true that both the sheep and the goats ask the same question, Tammy, but:

A the sheep on His right had actually done these things -- they just hadn't realized they were actually doing it to/for Him (and He's really talking about the Holy Spirit's working in them and bearing His fruit)... "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me." They know they did what they did, they just don't realize -- until Jesus tells them -- that they were doing it to Jesus by doing it to even the least of His brothers.

B the goats on His left did not -- "Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me."
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm ...Christians have already been caught up to meet Him in the sky when He returns, and changed (in a twinkling) into the new body. They are not among the nations to be gathered before Him. They are already with Him at this time.
No, Christians who are alive are caught up to meet Him in the air when He returns, as you say, but Jesus will be bringing the spirits of those who have fallen asleep (previously died) with Him in His return (1 Thessalonians 4:14). All will go out to Him and welcome Him as the royalty that He is. But both parties described here (those in Christ still alive at Christ's return and those Christ brings with Him), will stand in the Judgment -- with those not in Christ and still alive and those who have previously fallen asleep (died, physically) not in Christ. I would remind again of Jesus's statement that "...all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." All. And as Paul says, "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." Everyone is accounted for. Everyone.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm There is no third person; nor is there a 'triune Jehovah'.
In your opinion. That's very much incorrect, and you can call that my opinion, too. Cool?
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm There is the Father, whose name is JAH, who is the MOST Holy One of Israel (represented in the Temple by the MOST Holy Place).
There is the Son, whose name is Jaheshua, who is the HOLY One of Israel (represented in the Temple by the HOLY place, and no one comes to the MOST Holy except through the HOLY). He is the Holy One of God.
There is holy spirit, which has no name, which is the breath, blood and seed of JAH, also known as the water of life (which is poured out from Christ, to whomever He chooses, which the Father has given to Him without end).
Through Jesus we have access in one Spirit -- the Holy Spirit -- to the Father. So then we are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Christ we also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Holy Spirit [Ephesians 3:19-22].

GOD. SAVES. SINNERS.

GOD -- the Triune Jehovah, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; three Persons working together in sovereign wisdom, power and love to achieve the salvation of a chosen people, the Father electing, the Son fulfilling the Father’s will by redeeming, the Holy Spirit executing the purpose of Father and Son by renewing.

SAVES -- does everything, first to last, that is involved in bringing man from death in sin to life in glory: plans, achieves and communicates redemption, calls and keeps, justifies, sanctifies, glorifies.

SINNERS -- men and women as God finds them, guilty, vile, helpless, powerless, unable to lift a finger to do God’s will or better their spiritual lot.

God saves sinners -- and the force of this confession may not be weakened by disrupting the unity of the work of the Trinity, or by dividing the achievement of salvation between God and man and making the decisive part man’s own, or by soft-pedaling the sinner’s inability so as to allow him to share the praise of his salvation with his Savior. Sinners do not save themselves in any sense at all, but that salvation, first and last, whole and entire, past, present and future, is of the Lord, to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

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tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:48 pm You skipped right over the point. Satan is not just "bound". He is thrown into the abyss (a place, see Rev 9) which is then shut and sealed over him. He is not released until the thousand years are ended. He is not roaming about during the thousand years. He is imprisoned in the abyss (a place).
Wait... so the abyss is a place, but not hell. Hmmmm. LOL! Just playing with you, Tammy. :)

No, I didn't "skip over" anything. Satan is bound in the sense that he is no longer able to deceive the nations and stop the spread of the Gospel. Thanks be to God. But yes, he will be loose for a time near the end of the present Millennium.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

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