Paradise on Earth

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 6539
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 108 times
Been thanked: 52 times

Paradise on Earth

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

User avatar
tam
Prodigy
Posts: 4566
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: !"

Post #1691

Post by tam »

Peace to you!

Just quick here for the moment, Pinseeker, as I might be offline for a day or so, and then will get to the rest more thoroughly...
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:35 pm
tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:48 pm You skipped right over the point. Satan is not just "bound". He is thrown into the abyss (a place, see Rev 9) which is then shut and sealed over him. He is not released until the thousand years are ended. He is not roaming about during the thousand years. He is imprisoned in the abyss (a place).
Wait... so the abyss is a place, but not hell. Hmmmm. LOL! Just playing with you, Tammy. :)

No, I didn't "skip over" anything. Satan is bound in the sense that he is no longer able to deceive the nations and stop the spread of the Gospel. Thanks be to God. But yes, he will be loose for a time near the end of the present Millennium.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.
Hell (Sheol, Hades, the world of the dead) is also a place.

(you might have been confusing me with jws, who do not believe hell/sheol/hades is an actual place)




Talk to you soon, and peace again to you!

User avatar
tam
Prodigy
Posts: 4566
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: !"

Post #1692

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm
tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm I respectfully suggest that you take another read-through, because you have clearly misunderstood.
I understand your position. I would say the same to you.
tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm Checkpoint has said in this thread: The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.
Well good for him, then. Either he has changed his opinion, or I have him mixed up with another poster.


Therefore, you did misunderstand and would not say the same to me, yes?

tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm
At the time of Christ's return, Christians who have died are resurrected... and Christians who are yet alive will be caught up to meet them in the sky.
Agreed.
This is not what is being described at the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead).

Well, yes it is. But only partly, actually. Everyone else (unbelievers) will be resurrected at that time, also. But they will not go out to meet Jesus in His return as we will.
No, I am sorry, but it is not even partly described. Here is the description of the resurrection of the dead:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.


There is zero mention of anyone in the above passage being caught up to meet Christ in the sky or of anyone coming with Him from under the altar. This is a fact. You are probably going to say that it is implied, but it is not. There is zero reference to Christians being caught up to meet Christ in the sky (or of any Christian coming with Him when He returns). There is zero mention of anyone alive at this time being judged. This is the resurrection of the dead (people who had physically died, now being resurrected - either to judgment and the second death, or to life).

(The reason there is no mention of anyone being caught up to meet Christ in the sky, or of anyone coming with Him from under the altar, is because Christ returned a thousand years earlier than this, and Christians were resurrected and/or changed (in a twinkling) at that time.)

tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Please note that the description of the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) there is a) no description of spirits being reunited with physical bodies... and b) the dead are described as having been given up by Death and hades (the world of the dead). Are you suggesting that Christians who died are in Hades, the world of the dead? Of course not! They are 'under the altar'. They come WITH Christ when He returns and then we (who are in Christ) who are alive at that time will be caught up to meet them in the sky.
I agree with you here, Tammy. No, Christ who have died are not in the world of the dead, but rather seated in the heavenly places with Christ (as I have said several times). So, no. But non-Christians who have died... are.
Non-Christians, yes.... that is who the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) is for. Non-Christians are the only ones being described here at the resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection). I quoted the exact passage above.


tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm I am... pointing out that it is not mentioned anywhere in conjunction with the resurrection of those who are in Christ (at His return).
Okay, accepted, but I would say, speaking specifically about Revelation 20, that those who are not in Christ is clearly implied in verses 12 and 13, as they are standing before the throne... and are judged, each one of them.
Yes... those who are NOT in Christ.

The second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) is describing (and for) non-Christians.
They could not be standing and being judged had they not also been physically resurrected.
Agreed (and again, these are non-Christians).
You may still deny this, and that's your prerogative, but remember, Jesus Himself said, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
I have not denied this.
tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm There is no judgment for those who are in Christ.
Well, yes and no. No, in that everyone is judged according to what He has done. In Matthew 25, Jesus clearly portrays the judgment of those on His right, those that are in Him. But yes, in that we will have an Advocate at the Judgment, the One Who bore the judgment on our behalf -- Jesus, on the cross. I guess to put what you say really correctly, we will be judged, but we will not have to endure the Judgment, God's condemnation, and the second death. Perhaps this is what you are saying. If so, then good.
We agree that Christians do not have any reason to fear the second death or condemnation, we (who are in Christ) have Christ interceding for us, and His blood covers us.

Matt 25 (speaking of the sheep and the goats) is describing non-Christians (all). Some non-Christians (people of the nations who do the requirements of the law by NATURE), will enter into the Kingdom as subjects of the Kingdom, having (unknowingly) done good to Christ. Some non-Christians (including some who believe they are Christian) will be cast out, as goats.

**

There are people of the nations (non-Christians) who will enter into the Kingdom as well, Pinseeker, because there are people of the nations (non-Christians) who do the requirements of the law (which is love) NATURALLY, proving that the law is written upon their hearts. They will be declared righteous (see Romans 2:13-15) They do not reign with Christ as kings and priests, but they still enter the Kingdom and are granted eternal life. These people have love as their covering (love covers over a multitude of sins... Proverbs 4:8; 1Peter 4:8; see also Romans 13:10 and again, 2:13-15).

tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm B - What you are claiming is not what is written in the sheep and the goats. You are adding to what is written there. In fact, neither the sheep nor the goats are Christian.
Tammy, those who are Christ's are described as sheep all through the Bible. Jesus Himself says, "I know my sheep, and my sheep hear My voice." Christians are most definitely the sheep of Matthew 25:33-40.
Just because Christians are described as sheep does not mean that it is an exclusive term for them. Some non-Christians are described as sheep and are declared righteous (because of what they DO). Some non-Christians are also described as goats (as are some people who believe they are Christian, but are not). Not all non-Christians are goats, Pinseeker. Some are sheep (on the basis of their deeds).

It does not even make sense to suggest that the goats are all non-Christian, Pinseeker. Non-Christians can and have done what Christ is describing of the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable. Are you suggesting, truly, that no non-Christian has ever unknowingly done something good for Christ, in doing something good for a least one of His brothers? Even unknowingly? (see also Hebrews 13:2, because it is the same concept)

tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm Christians do not enter into the Kingdom on the basis of what they did for even a least one of His brothers...
Not on the basis of it, no.


EXACTLY!!!! But that IS the basis of how the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) enter the Kingdom. Therefore it makes NO SENSE at all to suggest that the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable are Christian.


tam wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:25 pm non Christians enter the Kingdom on the basis of what they have done for even a least one of His brothers, because what one does for a least one of His brothers, one does for Him. What Christian does not know that?
Non-Christians, Tammy -- goats, as described in Matthew 25:41-45 -- do not enter into the kingdom at all. These are the ones on His left at the Judgment, to whom He says, "Depart from me, you cursed..." Any Christian who doesn't get that is really lacking in understanding. No less a Christian (if their hearts are truly converted), but lacking in understanding just the same.
This is incorrect, Pinseeker, but I have already explained above some of the reasons why it is incorrect. So I will let it be. Except perhaps to say that your beliefs are not taking the great mercy of God into consideration, who shows mercy to whomever He wishes. Your beliefs here are placing limitations upon God and His great love and His great mercy and His great wisdom. And did Christ not say that if one shows mercy, mercy will be shown them? Do you honestly believe that no non-Christian is merciful, or forgiving? Whoever has taught you that is the one lacking in understanding.

Non-Christians can (and do) do the deeds as described of the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable.



**

As to the rest, I have never denied that God saves sinners, so I do not know what bearing your words about that had on our exchange about 'trinity' or 'no trinity'. I will just leave what was shared as is.


As always, may anyone who wishes be given ears to hear, so as to the hear the truth of these things from THE Truth (Christ Jaheshua). Any may anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, as the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE!"



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
PinSeeker
Guru
Posts: 2372
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: !"

Post #1693

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm
tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm I respectfully suggest that you take another read-through, because you have clearly misunderstood.
I understand your position. I would say the same to you.
tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm Checkpoint has said in this thread: The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.
Well good for him, then. Either he has changed his opinion, or I have him mixed up with another poster.


Therefore, you did misunderstand and would not say the same to me, yes?
You have said that you are a pre-millennialist, correct? Now, I don't know if this is the case for Checkpoint or not, but based on what he has said in this and other threads, he is, too. But he's not in this conversation (at least not right now, although he might be following and is welcome to throw his hat in the ring at any point). so that's beside the point. In the pre-millennial view of the end times, Christ is said to return prior to the Millennium -- and actually twice, the first being to "rapture" believers out of this world and the second to end the seven year "Great Tribuldation." Is that your view? If it is, then that has you believing that Christ's return is prior to the Millennium. Is that not your understanding?

Or would you put yourself with the Post-Millennial camp -- those who think there will be a literal 1000-year "golden age" for the Church of Christ and then He will return? In that case, you would say that Christ returns after the Millennium, but this is incorrect also, for some of the same and for other reasons.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm At the time of Christ's return, Christians who have died are resurrected... and Christians who are yet alive will be caught up to meet them in the sky.
Agreed.
This is not what is being described at the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead).

Well, yes it is. But only partly, actually. Everyone else (unbelievers) will be resurrected at that time, also. But they will not go out to meet Jesus in His return as we will.
No, I am sorry, but it is not even partly described. Here is the description of the resurrection of the dead:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.


There is zero mention of anyone in the above passage being caught up to meet Christ in the sky or of anyone coming with Him from under the altar. This is a fact. You are probably going to say that it is implied, but it is not.

No, that's not what I would say to this at all. I agree with your "fact" insofar as it goes, but what you are not understanding you should easily be able to see in Revelation 20:15, which reads:
  • "And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
What is clearly implied in that verse is that verses 12 and 13 -- and specifically those who are "thrown into the lake of fire" do not encompass everyone who is present and being judged. Even if one cannot see that -- which is, quite frankly, astounding -- we can easily couple what is being described here with what Jesus says of the same event in Matthew 25, that all will be present, and those on His right (believers, who will be judged on the basis of Christ Himself) will pass, while those on His left (unbelievers, who will be judged according only to themselves) will not.

As for being caught up in the air, yes, only believers who are alive at the time of Christ's return will participate in that event. Unbelievers who are alive at the time of Christ's return will not go out to meet Him in His return as we will. I agree that there is no mention of anyone in Revelation 20:11-15 being caught up, as this event will very clearly have already happened at the time setting of this passage; the Judgment takes place after the catching up of believers and the return itself.

As for bringing the rest of His Church (previously physically deceased believers), that too will be the case because of -- again -- what I said about verse 15. Everyone is present for the judgment, so they would have had to have come with Jesus in His return -- been brought with Him -- because, as was the case with the thief who was crucified with Jesus on his right (and we should see here the significance of that man's having been crucified on Jesus's right) they will have been with Jesus in paradise since their physical deaths.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm There is zero reference to Christians being caught up to meet Christ in the sky (or of any Christian coming with Him when He returns).
Right, but no explicit reference is needed. See above.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm There is zero mention of anyone alive at this time being judged.
All -- ALL -- are judged at this time. There is only one Judgment, and we are all judged according to our deeds.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm This is the resurrection of the dead (people who had physically died, now being resurrected - either to judgment and the second death, or to life).
Well, the second resurrection occurs before the Judgement. The results of that final Judgment determine, for each person, whether that resurrection was to eternal life or the second (eternal) death.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm The reason there is no mention of anyone being caught up to meet Christ in the sky, or of anyone coming with Him from under the altar, is because Christ returned a thousand years earlier than this, and Christians were resurrected and/or changed (in a twinkling) at that time.
Ah! So you are saying that Christ returns before the Millennium. I was right in my assessment of your position. Unfortunate. Not the case. No, Christ will return at the conclusion of the Millennium, as I said, which began with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. If you go back and read the Old Testament, you will discover that Pentecost was one of the Jewish feast days. Only they didn't call it Pentecost; that's the Greek name. The Jews called it the Feast of Harvest or the Feast of Weeks. It is mentioned in five places in the Pentateuch -- in Exodus 23, Exodus 24, Leviticus 16, Numbers 28, and Deuteronomy 16. So what we know as Pentecost (Acts 2) was the beginning of the harvest. And this harvest is what the Millennium represents -- the fullness of the time for the harvest to be complete, for all the Elect to be brought in to God's Israel (Romans 11). And Christ's return immediately follows. So Christians, in becoming Christians, are being spiritually resurrected-- harvested -- over the course of the figurative "thousand years," the Millennium, and this is the first resurrection, in which they are raised to new life in Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places, as Paul says in Ephesians 2.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm Non-Christians, yes.... that is who the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) is for. Non-Christians are the only ones being described here at the resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection). I quoted the exact passage above.
Well, you quoted it, but you don't understand it correctly. Everyone is present at the Judgment, regardless of where they are in relation to Christ -- on His right (believers) or on His left (non-believers). It should be made clear by verse 15 of Revelation 20, as I said, but in any case, Jesus is very clear about this in Matthew 25.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm I am... pointing out that it is not mentioned anywhere in conjunction with the resurrection of those who are in Christ (at His return).
Okay, accepted, but I would say, speaking specifically about Revelation 20, that those who are not in Christ is clearly implied in verses 12 and 13, as they are standing before the throne... and are judged, each one of them. [/quote]
Yes... those who are NOT in Christ.[/quote]
Right. You're agreeing with me on this much. Good. But again, verse 15 makes clear that those mentioned in verses 12 and 13 are not the only ones present.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Matt 25 (speaking of the sheep and the goats) is describing non-Christians (all).
Nope. The sheep are Christians (in Christ) and separated to Jesus's right, while the goats are those not in Christ and separated to Jesus's left. This is the final Judgment, which is the point of the passage. It's very similar to the separation of the tares/weeds (unbelievers, those not in Christ) from the wheat (believers, those in Christ) in that parable (Matthew 13:24-30). Believing what you do of Matthew 25 here is... far outside of Christian orthodoxy.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Non-Christians can (and do) do the deeds as described of the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable.
Sure they can, but the do not do them in faith and thereby serving Christ. My goodness.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm As always, may anyone who wishes be given ears to hear, so as to the hear the truth of these things from THE Truth (Christ Jaheshua). Any may anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, as the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE!"
Wholeheartedly agreed.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

User avatar
tam
Prodigy
Posts: 4566
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: !"

Post #1694

Post by tam »

Peace to you!
PinSeeker wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:34 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm
tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm I respectfully suggest that you take another read-through, because you have clearly misunderstood.
I understand your position. I would say the same to you.
tam wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm Checkpoint has said in this thread: The return of Christ occurs after the millennium.
Well good for him, then. Either he has changed his opinion, or I have him mixed up with another poster.


Therefore, you did misunderstand and would not say the same to me, yes?
You have said that you are a pre-millennialist, correct?


I do not think I have. I do not like using labels because some people add meaning to them that does not apply.
Now, I don't know if this is the case for Checkpoint or not, but based on what he has said in this and other threads, he is, too.


Well, in this thread, he has not said so (just the opposite, at least in the quotes that I supplied for you, which is why I suggested that you take a moment and read through the discussion).
In the pre-millennial view of the end times, Christ is said to return prior to the Millennium -- and actually twice, the first being to "rapture" believers out of this world and the second to end the seven year "Great Tribuldation." Is that your view?


I believe I told you my understanding in post 1672, and I think you might not have realized I did not agree with a 'second return 7 years after his first return' when I said I did not know where people got that idea (at the bottom of post 1676).

So to sum up:

- The Great Tribulation is in process when Christ returns and cuts it short.

- Christ returns at the start of the thousand years (cutting the tribulation short for the sake of the elect, and initiating the thousand year reign)


There is only one return here; not two.

If it is, then that has you believing that Christ's return is prior to the Millennium. Is that not your understanding?
That part is my understanding, yes, that Christ returns at the start of the millennium (which is what starts the millennium).
Or would you put yourself with the Post-Millennial camp -- those who think there will be a literal 1000-year "golden age" for the Church of Christ and then He will return? In that case, you would say that Christ returns after the Millennium, but this is incorrect also, for some of the same and for other reasons.
No I would not put myself in that camp (see above).
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm At the time of Christ's return, Christians who have died are resurrected... and Christians who are yet alive will be caught up to meet them in the sky.
Agreed.
This is not what is being described at the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead).

Well, yes it is. But only partly, actually. Everyone else (unbelievers) will be resurrected at that time, also. But they will not go out to meet Jesus in His return as we will.
No, I am sorry, but it is not even partly described. Here is the description of the resurrection of the dead:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.


There is zero mention of anyone in the above passage being caught up to meet Christ in the sky or of anyone coming with Him from under the altar. This is a fact. You are probably going to say that it is implied, but it is not.

No, that's not what I would say to this at all. I agree with your "fact" insofar as it goes, but what you are not understanding you should easily be able to see in Revelation 20:15, which reads:
  • "And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
What is clearly implied in that verse is that verses 12 and 13 -- and specifically those who are "thrown into the lake of fire" do not encompass everyone who is present and being judged.


I am quite aware that standing before the throne are those who are resurrected to life AND those who are resurrected to judgment and the second death.

What you are not aware of (or not accepting of) is that more than just Christians are granted life. If you could understand and accept that, then you might be able to see that all of the dead (those who had physically died and were now resurrected) who are being spoken of here are non-Christian.

Even if one cannot see that -- which is, quite frankly, astounding -- we can easily couple what is being described here with what Jesus says of the same event in Matthew 25, that all will be present, and those on His right (believers, who will be judged on the basis of Christ Himself) will pass, while those on His left (unbelievers, who will be judged according only to themselves) will not.
This - the separation of the sheep and goats - is a different event entirely. The sheep and goats are people of the nations who are still alive on the earth when Christ returns. The resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection) is for people who had previously died.

As for being caught up in the air, yes, only believers who are alive at the time of Christ's return will participate in that event.
Christians who are alive at that time, yes.
Unbelievers who are alive at the time of Christ's return will not go out to meet Him in His return as we will.


Non-Christians make up the people of the nations who are gathered before Christ when He returns, and separated into sheep and goats (as per the sheep and the goats parable).
I agree that there is no mention of anyone in Revelation 20:11-15 being caught up, as this event will very clearly have already happened at the time setting of this passage; the Judgment takes place after the catching up of believers and the return itself.
There is no mention of it because it does not happen here.

Everyone is present for the judgment, so they would have had to have come with Jesus in His return -- been brought with Him -- because, as was the case with the thief who was crucified with Jesus on his right (and we should see here the significance of that man's having been crucified on Jesus's right) they will have been with Jesus in paradise since their physical deaths.
Very interesting point Pinseeker!

So please note: the man on His right was NOT Christian. He is a man who did good TO Christ (as much good as he could do from his position), but he was not Christian. He could not have been Christian yet, because holy spirit (the anointing with which makes a person a Christian; an anointed one) had not yet been given! And yet, Christ tells that man that he will be with Him in paradise.

tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm There is zero reference to Christians being caught up to meet Christ in the sky (or of any Christian coming with Him when He returns).
Right, but no explicit reference is needed. See above.
See above.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm There is zero mention of anyone alive at this time being judged.
All -- ALL -- are judged at this time. There is only one Judgment, and we are all judged according to our deeds.
You ignored the point instead of addressing and simply repeated your belief.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm This is the resurrection of the dead (people who had physically died, now being resurrected - either to judgment and the second death, or to life).
Well, the second resurrection occurs before the Judgement. The results of that final Judgment determine, for each person, whether that resurrection was to eternal life or the second (eternal) death.
I don't see how you addressed the point here either: that the only people at this resurrection (and those are the only people standing before the throne) are those who had physically died.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm The reason there is no mention of anyone being caught up to meet Christ in the sky, or of anyone coming with Him from under the altar, is because Christ returned a thousand years earlier than this, and Christians were resurrected and/or changed (in a twinkling) at that time.
Ah! So you are saying that Christ returns before the Millennium. I was right in my assessment of your position.


No, you added something to it (that Christ returns twice, once at the start of the Great Trib and then again at the end of this 7 year Great trib).
Unfortunate. Not the case. No, Christ will return at the conclusion of the Millennium, as I said, which began with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. If you go back and read the Old Testament, you will discover that Pentecost was one of the Jewish feast days. Only they didn't call it Pentecost; that's the Greek name. The Jews called it the Feast of Harvest or the Feast of Weeks. It is mentioned in five places in the Pentateuch -- in Exodus 23, Exodus 24, Leviticus 16, Numbers 28, and Deuteronomy 16. So what we know as Pentecost (Acts 2) was the beginning of the harvest. And this harvest is what the Millennium represents -- the fullness of the time for the harvest to be complete, for all the Elect to be brought in to God's Israel (Romans 11). And Christ's return immediately follows. So Christians, in becoming Christians, are being spiritually resurrected-- harvested -- over the course of the figurative "thousand years," the Millennium, and this is the first resurrection, in which they are raised to new life in Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places, as Paul says in Ephesians 2.

We've been through most of this already, but since you are bringing the harvest into this:

[Jesus] told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”


AND:

The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.



(Matt 13)
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm Non-Christians, yes.... that is who the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) is for. Non-Christians are the only ones being described here at the resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection). I quoted the exact passage above.
Well, you quoted it, but you don't understand it correctly. Everyone is present at the Judgment, regardless of where they are in relation to Christ -- on His right (believers) or on His left (non-believers). It should be made clear by verse 15 of Revelation 20, as I said, but in any case, Jesus is very clear about this in Matthew 25.
You're assuming that no one except Christians can have their name written in the book of life. This is incorrect.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm I am... pointing out that it is not mentioned anywhere in conjunction with the resurrection of those who are in Christ (at His return).
Okay, accepted, but I would say, speaking specifically about Revelation 20, that those who are not in Christ is clearly implied in verses 12 and 13, as they are standing before the throne... and are judged, each one of them.
Yes... those who are NOT in Christ.
Right. You're agreeing with me on this much. Good. But again, verse 15 makes clear that those mentioned in verses 12 and 13 are not the only ones present.
How so?

tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Matt 25 (speaking of the sheep and the goats) is describing non-Christians (all).
Nope. The sheep are Christians (in Christ) and separated to Jesus's right, while the goats are those not in Christ and separated to Jesus's left. This is the final Judgment, which is the point of the passage. It's very similar to the separation of the tares/weeds (unbelievers, those not in Christ) from the wheat (believers, those in Christ) in that parable (Matthew 13:24-30). Believing what you do of Matthew 25 here is... far outside of Christian orthodoxy.
I learned as I have shared about the sheep and the goats parable from my Lord (Christ Jaheshua). He is the One I look (and listen) to for truth (Him being the Truth). I do not look to what is called "Christian orthodoxy" for truth. How many traditions and teachings of men have seeped in? All you have to do is look to the divided house that is Christendom, to see how much falsehood and "adding to or taking away from" (the truth), that has occurred over the last two thousand years. Why would anyone look to any of that in the hopes of knowing what is true?


Only Christ is the Truth, and only Christ will lead us into ALL truth.

tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Non-Christians can (and do) do the deeds as described of the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable.
Sure they can, but the do not do them in faith and thereby serving Christ. My goodness.
There is nothing mentioned of anyone (sheep or goats) having faith and serving Christ in that parable. The only thing mentioned (the only criteria given to be declared righteous and invited into the Kingdom) is that they DID these things for even a least one of His brothers (unknowingly doing so for Christ). And of course Paul also gives a second witness to these things, speaking of people who do BY NATURE the things required by the law (of love), and who will be declared righteous because of this. And love covers over a multitude of sins (Proverbs 4:8; 1Peter 4:8).


"Be merciful and mercy will be shown you."
"Forgive and you will be forgiven."



Some people (including people of the nations who are not Christian) do these things (which come from love) naturally; and some people need to be trained and taught them.

**

I will mention one thing (because you quoted it a few times, I think you quoted it to try and prove that all people will be judged there at the second resurrection/resurrection of the dead):

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


Please note that this is not referring to all people - this says that the time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out. This is referring to people who are in their graves.


tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm As always, may anyone who wishes be given ears to hear, so as to the hear the truth of these things from THE Truth (Christ Jaheshua). Any may anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, as the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE!"
Wholeheartedly agreed.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

And peace also to you, Pinseeker, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
PinSeeker
Guru
Posts: 2372
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: !"

Post #1695

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:53 pm - The Great Tribulation is in process when Christ returns and cuts it short.
Good... I have said this...
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:53 pm - Christ returns at the start of the thousand years (cutting the tribulation short for the sake of the elect, and initiating the thousand year reign)
Nope. Is this not what you just said you didn't believe? Whatever; it matters not at this point... Anyway, no, He returns at the end of the Church Age, the Millennium, the tribulatory period -- all three one and the same, from Pentecost to Jesus's Return. The final stretch of this is a... well, a "hyper" tribulation period, if you will, unknown in length, but cut short for the sake of the Elect, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until then and never will be (Matthew 24).
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:53 pm There is only one return here; not two.
Good. But, well, see above.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:53 pm
If it is, then that has you believing that Christ's return is prior to the Millennium. Is that not your understanding?
That part is my understanding, yes, that Christ returns at the start of the millennium (which is what starts the millennium).
Yeah, I was right about you. :)
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm I am quite aware that standing before the throne are those who are resurrected to life AND those who are resurrected to judgment and the second death.
Good!
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm What you are not aware of (or not accepting of) is that more than just Christians are granted life. If you could understand and accept that, then you might be able to see that all of the dead (those who had physically died and were now resurrected) who are being spoken of here are non-Christian.
Maybe so, but if you believe anyone other than heart-regenerate Christians -- God's Elect -- are given everlasting life, I'd like to hear who and what your Scriptural support for that is. I'm all ears, Tammy.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm This - the separation of the sheep and goats - is a different event entirely.
<chuckles> No, Tammy, it's not. The Judgment is described in both Matthew 25 and Revelation 20. They are one and the same event.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm The sheep and goats are people of the nations who are still alive on the earth when Christ returns.
Well they're included, yes. But that's not all the sheep, and that's not all the goats.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm The resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection) is for people who had previously died.
I agree with this. I've said this several times.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
As for being caught up in the air, yes, only believers who are alive at the time of Christ's return will participate in that event.
Christians who are alive at that time, yes.
Good.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm Non-Christians make up the people of the nations who are gathered before Christ when He returns, and separated into sheep and goats (as per the sheep and the goats parable).
Nope. The goats, Tammy, are all non-Christians. The goats of Matthew 25 and the weeds/tares of Matthew 13 are the same group of people. They are separated from the sheep (of Matthew 25) and the wheat of Matthew 13 at the Judgment, not before, which is just after Christ's return. You just said that you were "quite aware" that all are present at the Judgment. The separation is of the non-Elect from the Elect and is the direct result of the Judgment.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
I agree that there is no mention of anyone in Revelation 20:11-15 being caught up, as this event will very clearly have already happened at the time setting of this passage; the Judgment takes place after the catching up of believers and the return itself.
There is no mention of it because it does not happen here.
Is this not what I just said, Tammy? You even quoted it for goodness sake! LOL! The catching up happens before the Judgment. So when speaking of the Judgment, there's no mention of it. Wow.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm So please note: the man on His right was NOT Christian. He is a man who did good TO Christ (as much good as he could do from his position), but he was not Christian. He could not have been Christian yet, because holy spirit (the anointing with which makes a person a Christian; an anointed one) had not yet been given! And yet, Christ tells that man that he will be with Him in paradise.
Good grief. Okay, we have no other information about these two men other than they were robbers (and thus sinners, like all mere men are) and what we see in what they say, each in their turn:

The man on the left says, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" I would argue that this man is just like the rest of the onlookers who are mere scoffers -- unbelievers -- who say, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!” and the mocking soldiers who say, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!”

On the other hand, we have this man on his right first speaking not to Jesus but the other man, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And then he does speak to Christ, saying, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” I would argue that this is full evidence that he believes and repents of his sin... because he is obviously born again of the Holy Spirit. Whether this had happened any length of time before or in that very moment, we don't know. But that he is a heart-regenerate Christian and forgiven his sin is fully evident in Christ's answer: “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm You're assuming that no one except Christians can have their name written in the book of life. This is incorrect.
Back that claim up, Tammy. I mean, you can't -- though I'm sure you think you can. Let's hear it.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm
...verse 15 makes clear that those mentioned in verses 12 and 13 are not the only ones present.
How so?
Because the implication is that there are some present -- and I would say many, based on the fact that the number entering the kingdom after the Judgment is greater than any man can number; else where as the stars and as the grains of sand in the ocean -- whose "name" are "found written in the book of life" and thus not "thrown into the lake of fire."
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm I learned as I have shared about the sheep and the goats parable from my Lord (Christ Jaheshua). He is the One I look (and listen) to for truth (Him being the Truth).
Well, Tammy, that's great that you look to Him alone, but... well, in my opinion, you are... misunderstanding, for one reason or another.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Non-Christians can (and do) do the deeds as described of the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable.
Sure they can, but the do not do them in faith and thereby serving Christ. My goodness.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Some people (including people of the nations who are not Christian) do these things (which come from love) naturally; and some people need to be trained and taught them.
But if they don't do them because of faith, which is God-given, then their works mean nothing. As James says, faith without works is dead. This means that good works are well and good, but if they are not the natural result of God-given faith, then they are of no avail and futile, actually, regarding salvation, which is of the Lord. We see this very early on in the Bible, when God did not honor Cain's offering, but rather Abel's, because it came out of faith in the Lord.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm I will mention one thing (because you quoted it a few times, I think you quoted it to try and prove that all people will be judged there at the second resurrection/resurrection of the dead): Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. Please note that this is not referring to all people - this says that the time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out. This is referring to people who are in their graves.
Right, "...when all who are in their graves..." Does 'all' not mean all to you, Tammy? ALL people who are in their graves, which does now and will then include believers who have died as well as unbelievers. All.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

User avatar
tam
Prodigy
Posts: 4566
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: !"

Post #1696

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:51 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:53 pm - The Great Tribulation is in process when Christ returns and cuts it short.
Good... I have said this...
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:53 pm - Christ returns at the start of the thousand years (cutting the tribulation short for the sake of the elect, and initiating the thousand year reign)
Nope. Is this not what you just said you didn't believe?
No, what I said I do not believe is two returns of Christ that are separated by a 7 year period.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm What you are not aware of (or not accepting of) is that more than just Christians are granted life. If you could understand and accept that, then you might be able to see that all of the dead (those who had physically died and were now resurrected) who are being spoken of here are non-Christian.
Maybe so, but if you believe anyone other than heart-regenerate Christians -- God's Elect -- are given everlasting life, I'd like to hear who and what your Scriptural support for that is. I'm all ears, Tammy.
Are you really all ears, Pinseeker? Because I have shared that scriptural support in this thread, in this very discussion with you in fact, and also in other threads. But while scriptural support has been shared in this thread (and discussion), here is something I shared some time ago in perhaps a more orderly fashion:

viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804



tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm Non-Christians make up the people of the nations who are gathered before Christ when He returns, and separated into sheep and goats (as per the sheep and the goats parable).
Nope. The goats, Tammy, are all non-Christians.


Well, sure the goats are non-Christian (though there will be some who claim and believe that they are Christian). But the sheep in this parable are also non-Christian.
You just said that you were "quite aware" that all are present at the Judgment.
I did not say that, Pinseeker.

I said:

I am quite aware that standing before the throne are those who are resurrected to life AND those who are resurrected to judgment and the second death.


The separation is of the non-Elect from the Elect and is the direct result of the Judgment.
This is not stated for either event.

The separation of the sheep and the goats is based upon their deeds. Nothing is mentioned about faith. Nothing is mentioned about the elect versus the non-elect.

The resurrection of the dead and subsequent judgment is also based upon the deeds (of those who are resurrected from the dead). Nothing is mentioned about faith. Nothing is mentioned about the elect versus the non-elect.

I mean, it would be pretty simple to state that it was just a separation of believer versus non-believer, if that were the case. That is not said at either event. That is something that man has decided to add to the text.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
I agree that there is no mention of anyone in Revelation 20:11-15 being caught up, as this event will very clearly have already happened at the time setting of this passage; the Judgment takes place after the catching up of believers and the return itself.
There is no mention of it because it does not happen here.
Is this not what I just said, Tammy? You even quoted it for goodness sake! LOL! The catching up happens before the Judgment. So when speaking of the Judgment, there's no mention of it. Wow.
And yet the resurrection of the dead is clearly mentioned before the Judgment (the sea gives up the dead in it; Death and hades gives up the dead in them). Because the resurrection of the dead actually occurs just before the judgement; whereas the catching up occurred a thousand years previously (the rest of the dead are not resurrected until the thousand years are OVER).

tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm So please note: the man on His right was NOT Christian. He is a man who did good TO Christ (as much good as he could do from his position), but he was not Christian. He could not have been Christian yet, because holy spirit (the anointing with which makes a person a Christian; an anointed one) had not yet been given! And yet, Christ tells that man that he will be with Him in paradise.
Good grief. Okay, we have no other information about these two men other than they were robbers (and thus sinners, like all mere men are) and what we see in what they say, each in their turn:

The man on the left says, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" I would argue that this man is just like the rest of the onlookers who are mere scoffers -- unbelievers -- who say, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!” and the mocking soldiers who say, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!”

On the other hand, we have this man on his right first speaking not to Jesus but the other man, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And then he does speak to Christ, saying, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” I would argue that this is full evidence that he believes and repents of his sin... because he is obviously born again of the Holy Spirit.
Holy spirit was not given until after Christ died and was resurrected; once Christ breathed holy spirit upon the apostles and again to all those present at Pentecost. They were Christians (anointed ones) at that time.

The thief died before this occurred.

That does not mean that the thief was not loved by Christ or that he will not enter into the Kingdom (into Paradise) and receive eternal life. Christ said that the man would be with Him in paradise.


tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm You're assuming that no one except Christians can have their name written in the book of life. This is incorrect.
Back that claim up, Tammy. I mean, you can't -- though I'm sure you think you can. Let's hear it.
I've been writing it for some time now, using scripture, sharing what I received from my Lord, reasoning also (though you don't answer all the questions I ask). Just because someone else does not accept it does not mean that it is not true or that it has not been backed up.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm
...verse 15 makes clear that those mentioned in verses 12 and 13 are not the only ones present.
How so?
Because the implication is that there are some present -- and I would say many, based on the fact that the number entering the kingdom after the Judgment is greater than any man can number; else where as the stars and as the grains of sand in the ocean -- whose "name" are "found written in the book of life" and thus not "thrown into the lake of fire."
Some (even many) from verses 12 and 13 are those who are resurrected to life.

tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Non-Christians can (and do) do the deeds as described of the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable.
Sure they can, but the do not do them in faith and thereby serving Christ. My goodness.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm Some people (including people of the nations who are not Christian) do these things (which come from love) naturally; and some people need to be trained and taught them.
But if they don't do them because of faith, which is God-given, then their works mean nothing. As James says, faith without works is dead.


James says faith without works is dead and this is true.

James does NOT say that works without faith is dead.

In fact, Paul states the opposite of that, speaking of people who have works (doing the requirements of the law) NATURALLY. He even states that they are a law unto themselves, and that they will be declared righteous.

This means that good works are well and good, but if they are not the natural result of God-given faith, then they are of no avail and futile, actually, regarding salvation, which is of the Lord.
It does not mean this at all, Pinseeker. Faith without works is dead. You have turned what James DID say into something that James did NOT say, adding something James does not even comment upon here.


tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm I will mention one thing (because you quoted it a few times, I think you quoted it to try and prove that all people will be judged there at the second resurrection/resurrection of the dead): Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. Please note that this is not referring to all people - this says that the time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out. This is referring to people who are in their graves.
Right, "...when all who are in their graves..." Does 'all' not mean all to you, Tammy? ALL people who are in their graves, which does now and will then include believers who have died as well as unbelievers. All.
I think you skipped over the "IN THEIR GRAVES" part. If you are using this verse to suggest that all take part in the judgment (after the second resurrection), then you have forgotten that there are those who are not in their graves at that time. This verse, therefore, cannot be referring to them.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
PinSeeker
Guru
Posts: 2372
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: !"

Post #1697

Post by PinSeeker »

Okay, Tammy, here's what I want to hear. I can read Scripture for myself so there is no need to quote Scripture. If you want, you can include parenthetical references (i.e. Matthew 25, Romans 20), but anything more than that is unnecessary. I want to hear you tell me, in your own words, as concisely as possible, what you think is going to happen. I don't mean to be abrupt, but that seems necessary at this point.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
  • PinSeeker: You just said that you were "quite aware" that all are present at the Judgment.

I did not say that, Pinseeker.
You certainly seemed to. You said (and I quote): "I am quite aware that standing before the throne are those who are resurrected to life AND those who are resurrected to judgment and the second death." Is this not wholly equivalent to saying "all are present at the Judgment"? As I see it, it certainly is. Are you are drawing some kind of distinction? And if so, what is it and why? Again, I can read Scripture for myself so there is no need to quote Scripture. If you want, you can include parenthetical references (i.e. Matthew 25, Romans 20), but anything more than that is unnecessary.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
  • Pinseeker: The separation is of the non-Elect from the Elect and is the direct result of the Judgment.

This is not stated for either event.
This is exactly what the Judgment is, Tammy, as documented in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
  • Pinseeker: On the other hand, we have this man on his right first speaking not to Jesus but the other man, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And then he does speak to Christ, saying, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” I would argue that this is full evidence that he believes and repents of his sin... because he is obviously born again of the Holy Spirit.

Holy spirit was not given until after Christ died and was resurrected; once Christ breathed holy spirit upon the apostles and again to all those present at Pentecost. They were Christians (anointed ones) at that time.
Yes, I agree that the Holy Spirit did not come and help believers before Pentecost as He does after. But that does not mean that He was not present and working in the world, even from the beginning (as we see in Genesis 1:2). All God's Elect have been saved the same way from the beginning, by faith, and their good works have been the result of that God-willed and Spirit-given faith, as we see in Hebrews 11. God said long ago, long before Christ came, and it is still true today, that He sprinkles clean water on us, and we are cleaned from all uncleannesses, and from all your idols He cleanses us, and He gives us a new heart, a new spirit within us, and He removes the heart of stone from our flesh and gives us a heart of flesh, and he puts His Spirit within us (Ezekiel 36).
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm The thief died before this occurred.
Nope. The fact that Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise that very day is clear proof that the above had happened at some point.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
  • Tam: You're assuming that no one except Christians can have their name written in the book of life. This is incorrect.
  • PinSeeker: Back that claim up, Tammy. I mean, you can't -- though I'm sure you think you can. Let's hear it.

I've been writing it for some time now, using scripture...
Maybe so, but disjointedly at best, and -- no offense -- poorly. Concisely and in your own words, back it up (including Scripture references if necessary; again, I can read Scripture for myself).
tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm Just because someone else does not accept it does not mean that it is not true or that it has not been backed up.
Agree.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm
  • PinSeeker: ...verse 15 makes clear that those mentioned in verses 12 and 13 are not the only ones present.
  • Tam: How so?
  • PinSeeker: Because the implication is that there are some present -- and I would say many, based on the fact that the number entering the kingdom after the Judgment is greater than any man can number; else where as the stars and as the grains of sand in the ocean -- whose "name" are "found written in the book of life" and thus not "thrown into the lake of fire."

Some (even many) from verses 12 and 13 are those who are resurrected to life.

Agree. But they are the ones that are are heart-regenerate Christians -- this is why they are resurrected to life.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm James does NOT say that works without faith is dead.
True, but the point (not merely mine, but James's) is that works are of no consequence toward salvation, which is of the Lord, without faith.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm In fact, Paul states the opposite of that, speaking of people who have works (doing the requirements of the law) NATURALLY. He even states that they are a law unto themselves, and that they will be declared righteous.
Indeed he does. All of us, believer and non-believer alike, have the law written upon our hearts, but not all of us have faith worked in us by God's will and the work the Holy Spirit (and His ongoing help).
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm
  • PinSeeker: This means that good works are well and good, but if they are not the natural result of God-given faith, then they are of no avail and futile, actually, regarding salvation, which is of the Lord.

It does not mean this at all, Pinseeker. Faith without works is dead. You have turned what James DID say into something that James did NOT say, adding something James does not even comment upon here.
Nope. See above.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm
  • Tam: I will mention one thing (because you quoted it a few times, I think you quoted it to try and prove that all people will be judged there at the second resurrection/resurrection of the dead): Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. Please note that this is not referring to all people - this says that the time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out. This is referring to people who are in their graves.
  • PinSeeker: Right, "...when all who are in their graves..." Does 'all' not mean all to you, Tammy? ALL people who are in their graves, which does now and will then include believers who have died as well as unbelievers. All.

I think you skipped over the "IN THEIR GRAVES" part. If you are using this verse to suggest that all take part in the judgment (after the second resurrection), then you have forgotten that there are those who are not in their graves at that time. This verse, therefore, cannot be referring to them.
I skipped nothing. Thank you for your opinion. We disagree.

I humbly suggest that we quit going back and forth over all the points of dispute to this point and boil this back down to the following two requests, which both appear at the very top of this post. You may consider them one if you want. Yes, I am aware you will be going over at least some of the points you have tried to make previously; get past that if you can. To recap:
  • Request 1:
    I can read Scripture for myself so there is no need to quote Scripture. If you want, you can include parenthetical references (i.e. Matthew 25, Romans 20), but anything more than that is unnecessary. I want to hear you tell me, in your own words, as concisely as possible, what you think is going to happen.
  • Request 2 (this is probably included in the course of answering request number 1 above):
    You said (and I quote) "I am quite aware that standing before the throne are those who are resurrected to life AND those who are resurrected to judgment and the second death." Is this not wholly equivalent to saying "all are present at the Judgment"? As I see it, it certainly is. Are you are drawing some kind of distinction? And if so, what is it and why? Again, I can read Scripture for myself so there is no need to quote Scripture. If you want, you can include parenthetical references (i.e. Matthew 25, Romans 20), but anything more than that is unnecessary.
Thank you.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 6539
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 108 times
Been thanked: 52 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1698

Post by onewithhim »

Is there anyone here who likes the idea of a beautiful landscape, waterfalls, animals --even tigers and wolves--frolicking with children, good food, meeting again your once-deceased family members and friends in the flesh, and the house of your dreams? Many people think of heaven like that, but heaven doesn't have material things like those things, nor does it allow flesh to exist there. Doesn't paradise on Earth really sound good to you?

User avatar
tam
Prodigy
Posts: 4566
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: !"

Post #1699

Post by tam »

Peace to you Pinseeker!

Please forgive the delay in responding. I was not online much this past while.
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:58 pm Okay, Tammy, here's what I want to hear.
Ah, Pinseeker, truth is not always what people WANT to hear.
I can read Scripture for myself so there is no need to quote Scripture. If you want, you can include parenthetical references (i.e. Matthew 25, Romans 20), but anything more than that is unnecessary. I want to hear you tell me, in your own words, as concisely as possible, what you think is going to happen. I don't mean to be abrupt, but that seems necessary at this point.
You ASKED for scriptural support for the things I shared (specifically regarding the truth that more than just Christians enter into the Kingdom as subjects and receive eternal life). I gave this. Now you want a summary instead. (I gave a summary about the timing of things at the start of our conversation in post 1672). In my previous post, I also provided a link to a summary that includes scriptural support for the truth that more than just Christians enter into the Kingdom and receive the gift of eternal life. Perhaps you missed the link, so here it is again:

viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804

I did as you asked - summary and scriptural support. I don't think the problem is so much 'how' I respond (scriptures typed out or just referenced, summaries, etc.) The problem might be more that the scriptures support what I have shared.

tam wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:27 pm
  • PinSeeker: You just said that you were "quite aware" that all are present at the Judgment.

I did not say that, Pinseeker.
You certainly seemed to. You said (and I quote): "I am quite aware that standing before the throne are those who are resurrected to life AND those who are resurrected to judgment and the second death." Is this not wholly equivalent to saying "all are present at the Judgment"?


No it is not.

"I see cats and dogs in my yard..." does NOT mean, "I see all cats and dogs in my yard..."

As I see it, it certainly is. Are you are drawing some kind of distinction? And if so, what is it and why? Again, I can read Scripture for myself so there is no need to quote Scripture. If you want, you can include parenthetical references (i.e. Matthew 25, Romans 20), but anything more than that is unnecessary.
No need to quote scripture. This sounds more like a language comprehension issue.

Just because there are people standing before the throne who are resurrected to life, or to judgment, does not mean that all people are included in these two groups.

(And this cannot include anyone who is already alive at the time of this resurrection of the dead.)




**

Feel free to skip the rest if you prefer (I saw your request that we stop the back and forth at the end of the post, but I had already responded by then. I cut out most but kept a couple of points):

tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm James does NOT say that works without faith is dead.
True, but the point (not merely mine, but James's) is that works are of no consequence toward salvation, which is of the Lord, without faith.
No, that is not his point. He says nothing of the sort, Pinseeker. Nothing of the sort. That is something man has added.

tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm In fact, Paul states the opposite of that, speaking of people who have works (doing the requirements of the law) NATURALLY. He even states that they are a law unto themselves, and that they will be declared righteous.
Indeed he does. All of us, believer and non-believer alike, have the law written upon our hearts, but not all of us have faith worked in us by God's will and the work the Holy Spirit (and His ongoing help).
Not all of mankind has the law written upon their hearts. If all mankind had the law written upon their hearts, God would not have had to write the law (for Israel) upon stone tablets because their hearts were too hard. Nor would God have had to remove hearts of stone and replace them with a heart of flesh (that could be written upon). Paul could also easily have said - all have the law written upon their hearts. But that is not what he says; in fact, he says that those who do the requirements of the law - naturally - show that THEY have the requirements of the law is written upon their heart.

tam wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 pm
  • Tam: I will mention one thing (because you quoted it a few times, I think you quoted it to try and prove that all people will be judged there at the second resurrection/resurrection of the dead): Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. Please note that this is not referring to all people - this says that the time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out. This is referring to people who are in their graves.
  • PinSeeker: Right, "...when all who are in their graves..." Does 'all' not mean all to you, Tammy? ALL people who are in their graves, which does now and will then include believers who have died as well as unbelievers. All.

I think you skipped over the "IN THEIR GRAVES" part. If you are using this verse to suggest that all take part in the judgment (after the second resurrection), then you have forgotten that there are those who are not in their graves at that time. This verse, therefore, cannot be referring to them.
I skipped nothing. Thank you for your opinion. We disagree.
How can all in their graves include people who are not in their graves?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
tam
Prodigy
Posts: 4566
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1700

Post by tam »

Peace to you!
onewithhim wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:46 pm Is there anyone here who likes the idea of a beautiful landscape, waterfalls, animals --even tigers and wolves--frolicking with children, good food, meeting again your once-deceased family members and friends in the flesh, and the house of your dreams?


Such as this house?

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? John 14:2


That is the house of my dreams, dear owh.




Peace again to you,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy

Post Reply