Paradise on Earth

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Paradise on Earth

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Post by onewithhim »

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1791

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #1790]
JehovahsWitness, I tried to send you a PM but it was all messed up for some reason. I'll ask you here: How did I err when I said that Adam's only father was Jehovah?

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1792

Post by onewithhim »

To JehovahsWitness: Getting used to the new ways on this forum is taking me some time. LOL! I'll try again to PM you.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1793

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Onewithhim,

I quote from your original post in it's entirety.

"Paradise on Earth
Report Reply Quote Thanks Post #1
Post by onewithhim » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:25 am

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29"

Now I would ask you a few questions.

It appears that you and others would like to inherit this first condition in the Garden of Eden.

If the plan of God was to have all of us to remain in this state, then it would appear that since Adam and Eve had not children in the Garden, then you or I would not exist?

If on the other hand they had given birth, then everybody would be running around naked in this garden?

If Adam and Eve had not partaken of the fruit of the very good "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", do you believe the NONE of their posterity would have partaken?

If their posterity had partaken of the fruit would this have brought forth mortality?

You assert that Adam and Eve had forfeited their chance for salvation and exaltation in the kingdom of God. How can this be so?

And what evidence do you have to support this doctrine?

If Christ is the savior of all mankind as the scriptures state, then your view would make Christ a liar?

If Adam had not partaken of the fruit, then Adam would have made God a liar, for there would have been no need for a redeemer?

Lets hear your documented responses.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1794

Post by onewithhim »

Revelations won wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:04 am
Now I would ask you a few questions.

It appears that you and others would like to inherit this first condition in the Garden of Eden.

If the plan of God was to have all of us to remain in this state, then it would appear that since Adam and Eve had not children in the Garden, then you or I would not exist?

If on the other hand they had given birth, then everybody would be running around naked in this garden?

If Adam and Eve had not partaken of the fruit of the very good "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", do you believe the NONE of their posterity would have partaken?

If their posterity had partaken of the fruit would this have brought forth mortality?

You assert that Adam and Eve had forfeited their chance for salvation and exaltation in the kingdom of God. How can this be so?

And what evidence do you have to support this doctrine?

If Christ is the savior of all mankind as the scriptures state, then your view would make Christ a liar?

If Adam had not partaken of the fruit, then Adam would have made God a liar, for there would have been no need for a redeemer?

Lets hear your documented responses.

Kind regards,
RW
Yes, there are over 8 million of Jehovah's Witnesses who look forward to life on the earth forever. Isn't that what Psalm 37: 9,11 & 29 promise? The Bible promises one thing and you try to contradict it with your own imaginings.

I don't understand your reasoning in your first questions up at the top here. And your wondering about any of Adam's offspring partaking of the fruit is purely conjectural. That is something we could never know. You might as well say "would any of Adam's children have jumped off a cliff?" All we can deal with now is what the record actually tells us.

The evidence for Adam and Eve forfeiting their salvation and exaltation is all right there in the record. They were warned what their disobedience would incur. They rebelled anyway. God said they would die, and there is no record of them regaining favor with Jehovah. God's creation of humans was "very good." It was perfect, as the Scripture says all of God's creations are (Deut.32:4). That means that humans, created in God's image, were intelligent and aware of what they had to deal with in their lives. (Genesis 1:26) Humans would not have been created in God's image if they were ignorant and child-like. That's just common sense. So Adam and Eve knew they were disobeying God and rebelling against Him, yet they went ahead and chose to ignore His rules and decide for themselves what is good or bad. That is what the tree represented....their independence. Them being independent of God goes against everything that God says in His Word. He calls on everyone to listen to Him and benefit themselves. (Isaiah 48:17,18) They deliberately went against Jehovah and therefore they forfeited the right to live forever. They were supposed to broaden the Garden to cover the earth, but they dropped the ball. (Genesis 1:28) That purpose of God has yet to be fulfilled, and He is giving us now that opportunity if we just listen to Him.

No, our view of this does not make Christ a liar. He saves all those who ACCEPT his position as God's Son and also what he did for us when he was here on Earth. He does not save those who rebel against him and his Father and refuse to listen to God's Word. (Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-29)

You are right, that there would have been no need for a Redeemer if Adam had remained obedient. The Scriptures do not say that God planned on having Christ die for mankind even before the planet was made. It has been explained that "the world" that Christ was purposed to address with his sacrifice was the world of mankind alienated from God, as spoken about at I John 2:15-17, NOT the planet. The alienated "world" was mankind itself, after Adam rebelled against God. So, yes, if Adam had continued to obey God, he would have fulfilled his commission to spread the Garden of Eden all throughout the earth, and he would still be here. There would be no suffering and death.

I have responded with documentation. I trust that you will honor this and look at the Scriptures I cited.

OWH

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1795

Post by Revelations won »

OWH responded:

“Yes, there are over 8 million of Jehovah's Witnesses who look forward to life on the earth forever. Isn't that what Psalm 37: 9,11 & 29 promise? The Bible promises one thing and you try to contradict it with your own imaginings.

I don't understand your reasoning in your first questions up at the top here. And your wondering about any of Adam's offspring partaking of the fruit is purely conjectural. That is something we could never know. You might as well say "would any of Adam's children have jumped off a cliff?" All we can deal with now is what the record actually tells us.

My response:

Thank you for admitting you don’t understand.

The evidence for Adam and Eve forfeiting their salvation and exaltation is all right there in the record. They were warned what their disobedience would incur. They rebelled anyway. God said they would die, and there is no record of them regaining favor with Jehovah. God's creation of humans was "very good." It was perfect, as the Scripture says all of God's creations are (Deut.32:4). That means that humans, created in God's image, were intelligent and aware of what they had to deal with in their lives. (Genesis 1:26)

My response:

You claim the evidence is in the record. May I remind you that they, (Adam and Eve) did not even have the RECORD.

You presented Deuteronomy 32:4 to support you position.
While this a great verse, it has nothing to do with Adam.
I do agree that the Lord is “a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he”.

Deuteronomy 32:
4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Thank you for bringing focus on Genesis 1:26. However you overlooked verses 27-29. When examining this in context please observe the following carefully:

Genesis 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

You should so duly observe that God gave Adam:

every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

There are absolutely NO EXCEPTIONS! And NO LIMITATIONS!

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was also a “very good tree” according Genesis.

So in the instant matter Adam merely ate of the fruit which God duly gave him for meat.


You said:
Humans would not have been created in God's image if they were ignorant and child-like. That's just common sense.

My response:

The above is merely speculation and conjecture and a “private interpretation” by you.

You said:
So Adam and Eve knew they were disobeying God and rebelling against Him, yet they went ahead and chose to ignore His rules and decide for themselves what is good or bad. That is what the tree represented....their independence. Them being independent of God goes against everything that God says in His Word.

My response:

Again that conclusion is merely conjecture, speculation and another “private interpretation” on your part.

You are simply assuming that Adam and Eve had somehow and somewhere already had full knowledge of “good and evil” and fully understood the consequences of the exercise of agency.

The bottom line is the you cannot show from the scriptures that this was the case.

My position is supported by Genesis 3:

6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Contrary to your opinion, the above scriptures clearly demonstrates that both Adam and Eve were in a childlike state of innocence and that they clearly did not have the eyes of their understanding opened until after they partook of the fruit.

By the way, who gave you the power and authority to so harshly judge father Adam and mother eve with no compassion or mercy upon two whose eyes were not yet opened to know good or evil?

For with what manner you judge, so shall you be judged……

You should also consider the fact that there is not a single blessing of salvation and exaltation that you or I or anyone cannot attain to because of Adam or Eve!


You said:

He calls on everyone to listen to Him and benefit themselves. (Isaiah 48:17,18) They deliberately went against Jehovah and therefore they forfeited the right to live forever. They were supposed to broaden the Garden to cover the earth, but they dropped the ball. (Genesis 1:28) That purpose of God has yet to be fulfilled, and He is giving us now that opportunity if we just listen to Him.

No, our view of this does not make Christ a liar. He saves all those who ACCEPT his position as God's Son and also what he did for us when he was here on Earth. He does not save those who rebel against him and his Father and refuse to listen to God's Word. (Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-29)

My response:

You use Hebrews chapter 6 to somehow apply that to apply to Adam and Eve??? Let s not take this out of context and instead use verses 1 through 6 to get the correct picture.

Hebrews 6:

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3
And this will we do, if God permit.
4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The above verses clearly apply to those of a later date and time. It is self evident in Genesis that neither Adam or Eve at the time understood the doctrine of Baptism nor the laying on of hands for the “gift of the Holy Ghost”.

Neither does Genesis state the they were “once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost”.

Neither had they tasted of all “the good word of God that we have received.

Nor neither have they tasted of “the powers of the world to come”.

Neither have they been taught “the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead

You have NO evidence that they were taught the doctrine of repentance while in the garden of eden

You have NO evidence that they were taught regarding the atonement of Christ while in the garden of eden.

I have responded with the “in context” view which the scriptures you presented.

You full well know that neither Adam or Eve had the benefit of all the revelations and scriptures we have today!

It should be self evident that they had NO bible at all.

In light of the above I for one do not under any circumstance place any railing accusation against Adam or Eve.

It would appear by your responses that you place yourself above Michael the archangel and bring railing accusations against father Adam and mother Eve. You should carefully observe that Michael dared not to make railing accusations against even the devil as clearly shown in Jude 1.

Jude 1:
9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10
But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

So you have my response. I welcome you to show otherwise.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1796

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:13 pm .... Adam merely ate of the fruit which God duly gave him for meat
Image

really?
GENESIS 2:16, 17

Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it ...



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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1797

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Could Adam & Eve be expected to understand the command?


Of course; even a three-year old understands "don't touch" and can grasp if they DO touch they have done something wrong. Even a dog can understand the command "don't touch". Adam and Eve were fully capable of understanding the command, indeed, Eve repeated the command and the punishment verbatum when asked about it. They were both perfectly functional, fully grown adults and there is no reason that when God explained they were not to eat from a particular tree they were incapable of understanding him.

Further to suggest otherwise amounts to accusing God of injustice. It is entirely injust to punish someone for breaking a law they can neither understand nor are capable of keeping. Would you make a law to prohibit a baby crying ? And what would you say of a judge that pronounced the death penalty for a baby that broke that rule? God is not so cruel so as to demand Adam and Eve obey a law they were incapable of keeping.


Some have argued that "natural curiousity" would have inevitably lead Adam and Eve to sin

As perfect adult humans with an inclination to do good, "curiosity" would no more have been a factor in breaking God's law as a normal human in good mental health would hack his own hand off to see how far the blood would squirt.

While humans are naturally "curious" and this is not a bad thing, we also have a natural inborn inner gauge of right or wrong (even in our imperfect state) which renders certain actions inacceptable regardless of how "curious" we might be. No court would accept "I killed the baby because I was *curious* as to what it's final screams would sound like" Curiosity is neither a defence for Adam and Eve's actions nor a reason to conclude the law was unreasonable.


There is no indication that the tree was unique in its kind (it may well have been one pear/apple/orange tree in amongst many) and there is nothing in scripture that indicates Adam and Eve ate because they were "curious about what it would taste like. The faithfulness of Jesus proves that a perfect human CAN overcome 'so called natural curiosity' when it conflicts with righteous standards and pass tests of loyalty.



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1798

Post by onewithhim »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:13 pm OWH responded:

“Yes, there are over 8 million of Jehovah's Witnesses who look forward to life on the earth forever. Isn't that what Psalm 37: 9,11 & 29 promise? The Bible promises one thing and you try to contradict it with your own imaginings.

I don't understand your reasoning in your first questions up at the top here. And your wondering about any of Adam's offspring partaking of the fruit is purely conjectural. That is something we could never know. You might as well say "would any of Adam's children have jumped off a cliff?" All we can deal with now is what the record actually tells us.

My response:

Thank you for admitting you don’t understand.

The evidence for Adam and Eve forfeiting their salvation and exaltation is all right there in the record. They were warned what their disobedience would incur. They rebelled anyway. God said they would die, and there is no record of them regaining favor with Jehovah. God's creation of humans was "very good." It was perfect, as the Scripture says all of God's creations are (Deut.32:4). That means that humans, created in God's image, were intelligent and aware of what they had to deal with in their lives. (Genesis 1:26)

My response:

You claim the evidence is in the record. May I remind you that they, (Adam and Eve) did not even have the RECORD.

RW
The "record" is the Bible that we have now. That tells us that Adam and Eve were perfect and had an on-going relationship with Jehovah, talking every day in the evening. The record we have explains well why Adam and Eve lost their salvation.

And I don't understand YOUR thoughts. That is what I don't understand.


.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1799

Post by onewithhim »

Jehovah's Witnesses are now enjoying a campaign to emphasize God's Kingdom---His own government, with Jesus Christ as its King. We're sending out letters, even to superior authorities, emphasizing the Kingdom. It is what just about everyone knows---the Our Father/ Lord's Prayer---and what most of us have been saying our whole lives---that Jesus taught us to pray for God's Kingdom to come and rule over the earth. Most of us never gave it any thought. The churches don't explain it. (I asked a priest once what God's Kingdom is, and he said, "I don't know.") So our November campaign will alert everyone to the fact that God's own government is real and it is coming to rule the earth, thus getting rid of all of our problems---even death and sadness and suffering.

Our hope is that people take it seriously and get encouragement from the fact that the Kingdom is coming, sooner than later.

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Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1800

Post by onewithhim »

We are giving a beautiful special magazine to anyone who is interested. It is entitled "What is God's Kingdom?" Any JW will give you one, or you can ask for one on the website www.jw.org .

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