JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[polonius]

[quote="JehovahsWitness"]
[Replying to post 39 by polonius.advice]

The grammar constraints I was refering to is that fact that the pronoun “they� (Matt. 27:53, RS) could not refer to the “bodies,� because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and “they� is in the masculine, whereas “bodies� is in the neuter gender. Thus, if we hold strictly to the text, whoever (or whatever) later went into Jérusalem, it could not be the "bodies" that appeared (arose) after the earthquake.

All we can really say for certain is

a) bodies were "appeared" (see my earlier post ) following an earthquake; and
b) that "they" ("people") went into Jérusalem after his (presumably Jesus') resurrection.

No more, no less. We cannot say for sure whether 'they" were individuals that had previously been dead or "they" were people that simply had been present to witness the event. Indeed by far the majority of translations do not specify who "they" were, since the writer of Matthew himself is not specific.

RESPONSE: On the contrary, Matthew is absolutely specific.


Matthew 27 “The earth quaked, rocks were split, 52y tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.�


Your argument is absurd. Perhaps you should cease reading the apologists textbooks (which you seldom cite specifically) which ignore the obvious in their failed attempt to avoid the plain meaning of words.

[William]

I see the argument here is around the notion of the infallibility of the bible, which is presumed or otherwise believed to be 'Gods word' by certain types of individuals/groups - although I have not seen any scripture given in conjunction with that claim.

Is there anything in the bible which claims that the bible is 'The word of God' or did this doctrine come about through other means? If so, which?

[polonius]

I see the argument here is around the notion of the infallibility of the bible, which is presumed or otherwise believed to be 'Gods word' by certain types of individuals/groups - although I have not seen any scripture given in conjunction with that claim.

Is there anything in the bible which claims that the bible is 'The word of God' or did this doctrine come about through other means? If so, which?

RESPONSE: Oh sure!

2 Timothy 3:16-17 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
16 [a]All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Or

World English Bible
Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching,
for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,

Take your pick!

"How do we know? The Bible tells us so"!

[William]

I see the argument here is around the notion of the infallibility of the bible, which is presumed or otherwise believed to be 'Gods word' by certain types of individuals/groups - although I have not seen any scripture given in conjunction with that claim.

Is there anything in the bible which claims that the bible is 'The word of God' or did this doctrine come about through other means? If so, which?

RESPONSE: Oh sure!

2 Timothy 3:16-17 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
16 [a]All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Or

World English Bible
Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching,
for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,

Take your pick!

"How do we know? The Bible tells us so"!

Is that it? Nothing attributed to the words Jesus spoke?

What about the OT?

Just 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

Was the bible a complete package by the time these words attributed to Timothy were composed?

eta

Seems to me in reading that part from Timothy, that the idea is to read what you are told 'God' is and follow the directions therein. In this way you 'serve' the God as dictated by those doing the dictating on behalf of that idea of God. Strangely this coincides with serving the one's who make the claim, because in serving them you are serving god.


Seems more than a bit iffy and a bit of a stretch in its self to therefore claim the bible is saying the word of man is "The Word of a God." Conflict of interest right there.

Surely there is more to this than meets the eye...

etaa

related meme

[JehovahsWitness]

since the bible claim that a man can only die once (see Timothy I), these people are still around?

The bible does not claim that a man can die only once, it does say Christ died once (most people die once) but the bible does refer to the "second" death so obviously people can die twice, which would be the case for the 8 individuals mentioned in the scripture that are recorded as having been resurrected.

JW

[polonius]

William asked

Was the bible a complete package by the time these words attributed to Timothy were composed?

RESPONSE: No. The last addition to the Bible is the story of the woman taken in adultery in John's gospel. It was added in the 4th century and isn't in the Codes Vaticanus and Sinaticus (3rd century).

There have been periodic additions since that time, such as in John's Epistles, but most have been identified and removed. Yet there are some word substitutions, such as the use of the word "church" in Matthew 16. (The word "church" didn't exist when the original was written)which have been left.

[polonius]

JW posted:

The bible does not claim that a man can die only once, it does say Christ died once (most people die once) but the bible does refer to the "second" death so obviously people can die twice, which would be the case for the 8 individuals mentioned in the scripture that are recorded as having been resurrected.

RESPONSE:

My Bible reads in Hebrews 9:27
" And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment."

Does the JW Bible edit that passage out?

I understand that in the Bible God made 10 (not 8)exceptions to this general rule in addition to all those "many" raised at the time of Christ's death.

Interestingly, there is no record that any of the "resurrected" ten nor any of the "many" resurrected at Christ's death dying a second time.

You don't suppose that Matthew whole story of the "many" being resurrected at Christ's death (only Matthew tells this story) is yet another "inspired" scriptural error, do you?

[polonius]

JW posted (or quoted)

CONCLUSION: The contents of the bible, its historical and scientific accuracy, its prophetic detail, as well as the practical benefits millions have drawn from applying its principles, convinces many that it is not just an exceptional book but, is what it claims to be, "the word of God".

RESPONSE:
But since it can be shown that the Bible contains a number of contradictions or errors of fact, it cannot be claimed to be the “word of God’ unless God makes errors.

For example:

Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled what had been said through Jeremiah the prophet, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of a man with a price on his head, a price set by some of the Israelites, 10 and they paid it out for the potter’s field just as the Lord had commanded me.�

But nowhere in Jeremiah is this stated. The “inspired� Matthew evidently is in error yet again.

[JehovahsWitness]

the bible claim[s] that a man can only die once (see Timothy I) ...

JW posted:

The bible does not claim that a man can die only once [...] obviously people can die twice, which would be the case for the 8 individuals mentioned in the scripture that are recorded as having been resurrected.

RESPONSE:

My Bible reads in Hebrews 9:27
" And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment.".

TO APPOINT

1. assign a job or role to (someone).
2. determine or decide on (a time or a place).
synonyms: specify, determine, assign, designate, allot, set, fix, arrange, choose, decide on, establish, settle, authorize, ordain, prescribe, decree

To "appoint" means to assigne or decide what someone will do or what will happen to them (see above); it does not mean that alternative options are impossible.

To illustrate: If a father "appoints" (assigns) his eldest son to wash the car once a week on Sunday, does that mean he (the son) CANNOT wash the car twice a week?

CONCLUSION: Evidently, the bible is not saying that it is impossible for a person to die more than once and there is no claim of such in scripture. Since the sin of Adam as a general rule * people presently die just "once" but this is far from a claim that this is all they can do or that this will always be the case.

I understand that in the Bible God made [...] exceptions* to this general rule .

* There are 9 recorded résurrections in the bible. Eight of which it seems safe to presume later died (for the second time). One (Jesus) only died once and is according to the bible, presently immortal incapable of dying a second time.

[polonius]

JW posted:

The bible does not claim that a man can die only once, it does say Christ died once (most people die once) but the bible does refer to the "second" death so obviously people can die twice, which would be the case for the 8 individuals mentioned in the scripture that are recorded as having been resurrected.

RESPONSE:

My Bible reads in Hebrews 9:27
" And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment."

Does the JW Bible edit that passage out?

I understand that in the Bible God made 10 (not 8)exceptions to this general rule in addition to all those "many" raised at the time of Christ's death.

Interestingly, there is no record that any of the "resurrected" ten nor any of the "many" resurrected at Christ's death dying a second time.

You don't suppose that Matthew whole story of the "many" being resurrected at Christ's death (only Matthew tells this story) is yet another "inspired" scriptural error, do you?

TO APPOINT

1. assign a job or role to (someone).
2. determine or decide on (a time or a place).
synonyms: specify, determine, assign, designate, allot, set, fix, arrange, choose, decide on, establish, settle, authorize, ordain, prescribe, decree

To "appoint" means to assigne or decide what someone will do or have (see above). It does not mean that individual is not capable of doing Something else.

To illustrate: If a father "appoints" or decides that his eldest son to say, wash the car once a week on Sunday, does that mean he (the son) CANNOT wash the car twice a week.

RESPONSE: So are you now trying to argue that the "many" Matthew claimed were resurrected at Jesus' death and showed themselves to many residents of Jerusalem really weren't going to die anyway?

Wouldn't this argument be rather absurd?