JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 496 by onewithhim]

Breathing the same air as pagans is not an issue here. It is their total lack of respect and honor toward JHVH, the one true God. Therefore.....Christians do not mingle with pagans, and that includes their practices, however ancient.

Sometimes I think it is important to keep historical context. Without those pagan rituals, Christianity would not have gotten off the ground, Christendom would not exist, and the bible would not have ever existed or been the best selling piece of fiction the world has ever seen.
Thus, the JW organization would not exist to carry the message that the 'word of GOD' is the 'bible'.

One has to understand that pagan is everything non Jewish and as far as I can tell, JW are not Jewish, no matter how much they call the LORD [font=Courier New]'Whyaitchveeaitch'[/font] or render 'artists impressions' as to what [font=Courier New]Whyaitchveeaitch[/font] looks like.

This is to say that, to an orthodox Jew, a JW is 'pagan'and no doubt they would have some problem with how these pagans go around telling everyone that they are witnesses of the LORD [font=Courier New]Whyaitchveeaitch[/font].

Seriously, 'pagans' are the competition just like 'blasphemers' and 'heretics' are.

Well, yes, the pagans are "the competition," not giving the true God any recognition, and many people side with them because it is easier than being honest, generous, and following in Christ's footsteps (by preaching from door to door about the Kingdom). Pagans' traditions are enticing to people, and people have incorporated pagan traditions into their Christian practices, mixing and blending them all together.

To an orthodox Jew Christ himself was a blasphemer influenced by the demons. Jehovah's Witnesses have fallen into that same category, but we know we are in good company.

[William]

[Replying to post 498 by onewithhim]

Well, yes, the pagans are "the competition," not giving the true God any recognition, and many people side with them because it is easier than being honest, generous, and following in Christ's footsteps (by preaching from door to door about the Kingdom).

Awwww...that brought tears to the eyes. Did Jesus have a day job just like most JayDubs do? Did he have a warm home and family to go home to after door-knocking all week, sometimes split shift and other time double shift?
More things which the competition help to provide...plumbing, electricity, clean water, good food, but they don't count in your estimate because they don't acknowledge your idea of GOD in the same way you do? And Christendoms atrocities in dealing with 'pagans' are of no interest to you. The important thing is that through it all, JWs rose like a glorious artists impression of something wonderful and worthy and now have a following of 8 million and counting. Praise be lord [font=Courier New]Whyaitchveeaitch[/font]!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 498 by onewithhim]

Well, yes, the pagans are "the competition," not giving the true God any recognition, and many people side with them because it is easier than being honest, generous, and following in Christ's footsteps (by preaching from door to door about the Kingdom).

Awwww...that brought tears to the eyes. Did Jesus have a day job just like most JayDubs do? Did he have a warm home and family to go home to after door-knocking all week, sometimes split shift and other time double shift?
More things which the competition help to provide...plumbing, electricity, clean water, good food, but they don't count in your estimate because they don't acknowledge your idea of GOD in the same way you do? And Christendoms atrocities in dealing with 'pagans' are of no interest to you. The important thing is that through it all, JWs rose like a glorious artists impression of something wonderful and worthy and now have a following of 8 million and counting. Praise be lord [font=Courier New]Whyaitchveeaitch[/font]!

What are you talking about? How do you equate pagan traditions with the folks that provide us with the amenities of life? I don't understand where you're coming from. Jehovah's Witnesses also help provide those things you mentioned. Also, why do you think that Christendom's treatment of pagans and Jews, and even their own, is of no interest to me?

[William]

[Replying to post 500 by onewithhim]

What are you talking about?

Pagans and Paganism in the worlds history.

How do you equate pagan traditions with the folks that provide us with the amenities of life?

What I had pointed out was that if it were not for pagans and paganism, Christendom - of which the JayDub org is a daughter of, would not exist.

I don't understand where you're coming from.

That is because you ignored the context of my initial post in order to focus upon a small part of the whole. In that, 'it went right over your head.'

Jehovah's Witnesses also help provide those things you mentioned.

Besides the point. What do I care whether it was a JayDub who provided me a place of warmth and comfort, or a pagan? Should I be more grateful if it was one but not the other?
What if the pair of them together helped provide? Am I to cut away the part that the pagan contributed, in order to acknowledge a [strike]possible[/strike] probable (by all accounts) Sith lord as supreme creator and ruler of the universe?

Also, why do you think that Christendom's treatment of pagans and Jews, and even their own, is of no interest to me?

I took it on a hunch since you skirted around what I had mentioned in your rush to pour praises upon the JayDub org. Also, to keep the waters as clear as possible, I did not mention Christendoms treatment of Jews, or Jews treatment of Palestinians, or Palestinians treatment of Americans...my focus was entirely on your somewhat smarmy recommendation of the JWs as if they somehow exist despite pagans also existing, and simply wanted to point out how it is actually JWs exist because of paganism's contributions.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 496 by onewithhim]

People can, and do celebrate birthdays and Christmas and Easter in ways that are more than compatible with the teachings of Christ and the Bible.

You and your organization are needlessly putting them in opposition. There is nothing inherently un-Christian about celebrating Christmas, or birthdays for that matter.

"Well, the pagans did it" is not a good enough reason to deny the practice. "There is no mention of the early disciples having done so" isn't good enough either. "No mention", does not mean they didn't do it. And even if they didn't practice those things, that in and of itself does not mean that other Christians down the line cannot, or should not practice birthdays and holidays.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 500 by onewithhim]

What are you talking about?

Pagans and Paganism in the worlds history.

How do you equate pagan traditions with the folks that provide us with the amenities of life?

What I had pointed out was that if it were not for pagans and paganism, Christendom - of which the JayDub org is a daughter of, would not exist.

I don't understand where you're coming from.

That is because you ignored the context of my initial post in order to focus upon a small part of the whole. In that, 'it went right over your head.'

Jehovah's Witnesses also help provide those things you mentioned.

Besides the point. What do I care whether it was a JayDub who provided me a place of warmth and comfort, or a pagan? Should I be more grateful if it was one but not the other?
What if the pair of them together helped provide? Am I to cut away the part that the pagan contributed, in order to acknowledge a [strike]possible[/strike] probable (by all accounts) Sith lord as supreme creator and ruler of the universe?

Also, why do you think that Christendom's treatment of pagans and Jews, and even their own, is of no interest to me?

I took it on a hunch since you skirted around what I had mentioned in your rush to pour praises upon the JayDub org. Also, to keep the waters as clear as possible, I did not mention Christendoms treatment of Jews, or Jews treatment of Palestinians, or Palestinians treatment of Americans...my focus was entirely on your somewhat smarmy recommendation of the JWs as if they somehow exist despite pagans also existing, and simply wanted to point out how it is actually JWs exist because of paganism's contributions.

Well, I don't agree with your assessment of JWs that they sprang from paganism's contributions. Jehovah's Witnesses are not a denomination of Christendom. We call "Christendom" all the denominations that have descended from the RCC (including, of course, the RCC herself). Jehovah's Witnesses are not an off-spring of any religion. We do not descend from the RCC. We follow after the earliest congregation begun by Jesus and model ourselves after that. The earliest Christians would not recognize the churches of Christendom at all.

So we do not exist "because of paganism's contributions." All the other churches do.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 496 by onewithhim]

People can, and do celebrate birthdays and Christmas and Easter in ways that are more than compatible with the teachings of Christ and the Bible.

You and your organization are needlessly putting them in opposition. There is nothing inherently un-Christian about celebrating Christmas, or birthdays for that matter.

"Well, the pagans did it" is not a good enough reason to deny the practice. "There is no mention of the early disciples having done so" isn't good enough either. "No mention", does not mean they didn't do it. And even if they didn't practice those things, that in and of itself does not mean that other Christians down the line cannot, or should not practice birthdays and holidays.

Yes, we do not know for sure these practices. And I don't think birthdays, matter, but Christmas might. Remember the root of holidays. We do know they worshipped on the Sabbath and kept passover and the 6 other feasts of God.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 500 by onewithhim]

What are you talking about?

Pagans and Paganism in the worlds history.

How do you equate pagan traditions with the folks that provide us with the amenities of life?

What I had pointed out was that if it were not for pagans and paganism, Christendom - of which the JayDub org is a daughter of, would not exist.

I don't understand where you're coming from.

That is because you ignored the context of my initial post in order to focus upon a small part of the whole. In that, 'it went right over your head.'

Jehovah's Witnesses also help provide those things you mentioned.

Besides the point. What do I care whether it was a JayDub who provided me a place of warmth and comfort, or a pagan? Should I be more grateful if it was one but not the other?
What if the pair of them together helped provide? Am I to cut away the part that the pagan contributed, in order to acknowledge a [strike]possible[/strike] probable (by all accounts) Sith lord as supreme creator and ruler of the universe?

Also, why do you think that Christendom's treatment of pagans and Jews, and even their own, is of no interest to me?

I took it on a hunch since you skirted around what I had mentioned in your rush to pour praises upon the JayDub org. Also, to keep the waters as clear as possible, I did not mention Christendoms treatment of Jews, or Jews treatment of Palestinians, or Palestinians treatment of Americans...my focus was entirely on your somewhat smarmy recommendation of the JWs as if they somehow exist despite pagans also existing, and simply wanted to point out how it is actually JWs exist because of paganism's contributions.

Well, I don't agree with your assessment of JWs that they sprang from paganism's contributions. Jehovah's Witnesses are not a denomination of Christendom. We call "Christendom" all the denominations that have descended from the RCC (including, of course, the RCC herself). Jehovah's Witnesses are not an off-spring of any religion. We do not descend from the RCC. We follow after the earliest congregation begun by Jesus and model ourselves after that. The earliest Christians would not recognize the churches of Christendom at all.

So we do not exist "because of paganism's contributions." All the other churches do.

Deny it as long as you wish. All followers of the way of Christ are christians. Yours just came 1882ish years later.

[William]

[Replying to post 503 by onewithhim]

Well, I don't agree with your assessment of JWs that they sprang from paganism's contributions. Jehovah's Witnesses are not a denomination of Christendom. We call "Christendom" all the denominations that have descended from the RCC (including, of course, the RCC herself). Jehovah's Witnesses are not an off-spring of any religion. We do not descend from the RCC. We follow after the earliest congregation begun by Jesus and model ourselves after that. The earliest Christians would not recognize the churches of Christendom at all.

So we do not exist "because of paganism's contributions." All the other churches do.

The flaw in that organisations theory is in trying to distance itself from Christendom whilst still calling itself 'Christian' AND promoting a book as 'the word of GOD' which is an invention of Christendom.

The organisation grew through a bible study group and essentially has tried to plug the logical gaps by interpreting the bible in a way which gives the impression it is indeed the infallible 'word of GOD' as proclaimed by Christendom. Suffice to say, the organisations roots are firmly in Christendom, and cannot be traced back to those times before Christianity became a state religion. You are being deceived and deceiving others with this proclamation that the organisation did not come from Christendom.

Simply put, if the command is 'come out of her' (get away from , distance oneself - have nothing to do with) the JW org cannot take parts of the mother-church with it and preach those as 'truth' and still claim not to have anything to do with Christendom. The claim is not truth.

You call yourselves Christians after Christendom. If your really were the doorknockers representing what Jesus represented, you would call yourselves 'disciples'.

Jesus is never recorded as calling his followers 'Christians' and never referred to his idea of GOD as 'Jehovah'.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 500 by onewithhim]

What are you talking about?

Pagans and Paganism in the worlds history.

How do you equate pagan traditions with the folks that provide us with the amenities of life?

What I had pointed out was that if it were not for pagans and paganism, Christendom - of which the JayDub org is a daughter of, would not exist.

I don't understand where you're coming from.

That is because you ignored the context of my initial post in order to focus upon a small part of the whole. In that, 'it went right over your head.'

Jehovah's Witnesses also help provide those things you mentioned.

Besides the point. What do I care whether it was a JayDub who provided me a place of warmth and comfort, or a pagan? Should I be more grateful if it was one but not the other?
What if the pair of them together helped provide? Am I to cut away the part that the pagan contributed, in order to acknowledge a [strike]possible[/strike] probable (by all accounts) Sith lord as supreme creator and ruler of the universe?

Also, why do you think that Christendom's treatment of pagans and Jews, and even their own, is of no interest to me?

I took it on a hunch since you skirted around what I had mentioned in your rush to pour praises upon the JayDub org. Also, to keep the waters as clear as possible, I did not mention Christendoms treatment of Jews, or Jews treatment of Palestinians, or Palestinians treatment of Americans...my focus was entirely on your somewhat smarmy recommendation of the JWs as if they somehow exist despite pagans also existing, and simply wanted to point out how it is actually JWs exist because of paganism's contributions.

Well, I don't agree with your assessment of JWs that they sprang from paganism's contributions. Jehovah's Witnesses are not a denomination of Christendom. We call "Christendom" all the denominations that have descended from the RCC (including, of course, the RCC herself). Jehovah's Witnesses are not an off-spring of any religion. We do not descend from the RCC. We follow after the earliest congregation begun by Jesus and model ourselves after that. The earliest Christians would not recognize the churches of Christendom at all.

So we do not exist "because of paganism's contributions." All the other churches do.

Deny it as long as you wish. All followers of the way of Christ are christians. Yours just came 1882ish years later.

The Bible says that true knowledge would re-surface at the end of days. The true followers of Christ would shine like the sun, and the ones doing God's will would be evident.

Daniel chapter 12 refers to the last days, and it suggests that true knowledge has been muffled by men for a long time.

"The ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse, and those who are bringing many to righteousness....Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about and the true knowledge will become abundant." (Daniel 12:3,4)

"...So it will be in the conclusion of the system of things....At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun." (Matthew 13:40-43)

Jesus' parable about the wheat and the weeds in Matthew 13 helps us to understand that the true followers of Christ would be almost choked out by the "weeds" or "tares," the sons of the Devil...the "false sons of the Kingdom." But in the last days the true followers of Christ would prevail.

So Jehovah's Witnesses are not just a new religion that started up in the 1800s. They go back to the earliest followers of Christ. They do things just the way Jesus did them, and how he taught his followers to do. They go back before the great Apostacy, which happened after all the Apostles were gone. This Apostacy produced all the big denominations of Christendom that we have today that claim to be following God. (Acts 20:29,30)