For those who still believe

[Elijah John]

Some questions.

I hear this most often from Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses...seldom from Catholics or mainline Protestants.

Question 1)If you hold the position that Muslims do indeed worship a "different God", how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Through your own studies? Thinking for yourself?*

Question 2) Or is there some Evangelical "play book" instructing believers to regard Islam as worshiping a "different God"?*

Question 3) Is the phrase a "different God" a euphemism for something worse?

Quesstion 4) Do you think demonization (in this case perhaps literally) of other great world religions is God's will and any way to be a peacemaker, as Jesus expects God's children to be?

Question 5) Do we have ANY Evangelicals or Jehovah's Witnesses among us who believe that yes, Muslims worship the same God, but in a different way?

I am not a Muslim, but let me make a case that Muslims do not worship a "different God".

a) Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham...so do Christians and Jews.

b) In Genesis, Ishmael was promised that he too would be the father of a great nation" Ishmael is widely regarded as the ancestor of the Arab people.

c) Is is such a stretch then, to believe the Arabs would have a prophet of their own?

d) the Qur'an itself teaches that God gave "Moses the Torah, King David the Psalms, and Jesus the Gospel...and has high regard for Jews and Christians as fellow "People of the Book".

e) Mohammad hated idolatry, and taught only worship of the one true God of Abraham. But he did not consider Jews and monotheistic Christians to be idolators, in fact, Muslims are allowed to marry Christians and Jews, but not polytheists.

f) Even Pope John Paul II taught that Muslims worship the same God as Christians do, but of course he also taught that does not contradict the belief that Christians have the fullness of Truth.


After considering the above, does Islam still sound to you like a religion that teaches people to worship a "different God"?

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(*I get suspicious when folks march in lock-step with no deviation)

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 8 by Elijah John]

I would agree that they worship the same basic type of God, if that is what you mean. But I do still think they worship different Gods. The Jewish God is said to have chosen Isaac not Ishmael. The Islamic God chose Ishmael not Isaac. Those are two different Gods because the same God could not have done both; logically they are mutually exclusive. The Islamic God has Muhammad for a prophet; the Jewish God does not. Differences like these tell us that they are worshiping a different God, even if it is the same type of God (an eternal Creator that is immaterial and personal, etc.).

Do you worship either of those Gods? Or do you just worship the same general kind of God but think that Jews and Muslims believe some really false things about the true God?

Is the person who thinks my dad is a professional football player really talking about the same person I am? They are both material beings, maybe they both have a similar build, they are both intelligent, rational beings. But they aren't the same person.

[JehovahsWitness]

Because, perhaps, YHVH knows people's hearts better than say, Evangelicals or Jehovah's Witnesses do?

Of course he does. Was there anything I said that implied otherwise?

Do you see Trinitarians too, as worshiping a "different God"?

Of course! If trinitarians are worshipping an Almighty God called "Jesus" who is trinitarian in nature and then we are obviously not worshipping the same God. My God has no equal, he created Jesus (who at one time did not even exist) and is called YHWH (a name he shares with nothing and nobody) and his people have abosoutely no objection to the English pronunciation JEHOVAH.

Go ask a trinitarian if they are happy for the above paragraph as a description of their God if you have any notion that the feelings are not entirely mutual.

[JehovahsWitness]

How about Jews?

The Jews were God's chosen people, that is no longer the case.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was a Jew and came initially for the Jewish people. Saddly by the time he came to earth, the Jewish religion was essentially apostate. Still, he accepted to worship at the temple and observe the law because at that time they were still God's chosen people and the religious system the only one on earth by which people could learn about the true God.

Jehovah offered first to the Jews the opportunity to become spirit anointed sons and heir to the Kingdom (the heavenly Government of 144,000). Tragically the nation as a whole rejected that offer, did not accept their own Messiah and killed his son. At that moment they lost their special favor and God turned to the nations to fill that number and choose a new people for His name. Happily individual Jews could still have the opportunity to accept Jesus, indeed the first Christians were all decendants of Abraham.

Our beliefs are that "Judaism", the religion of apostate Jews eventually became part of what the bible calls "Babylon the Great" and will be destroyed along with all other religions which we consider false. So no, we do not believe Jews are worshipping the True God, which is tragic since as "the keepers of the word", historically they once did.

[Elijah John]

Because, perhaps, YHVH knows people's hearts better than say, Evangelicals or Jehovah's Witnesses do?

Of course he does. Was there anything I said that implied otherwise?

Do you see Trinitarians too, as worshiping a "different God"?

Of course! If trinitarians are worshipping an Almighty God called "Jesus" who is trinitarian in nature and then we are obviously not worshipping the same God. My God has no equal, he created Jesus (who at one time did not even exist) and is called YHWH (a name he shares with nothing and nobody) and his people have abosoutely no objection to the English pronunciation JEHOVAH.

Go ask a trinitarian if they are happy for the above paragraph as a description of their God if you have any notion that the feelings are not entirely mutual.

Yup, saying that YHVH God considers only one form of worship acceptable to Him (presumbably the JW way) it what drew that there comment.

OK turnabout IS fair play. Evangelicals, do you believe that Jehovah's Witnesses too, worship a "different God".

(JW, I tihnk we already heard from one, who seems to think this is the case)

And of course, I agree, our God YHVH has no equal. But we differ especially in the extremely high Christology which JW's teach, and I do not adhere to.

Yes, for me YHVH is God, without equal. But I do not believe that Jesus had a "pre-existence," Nor do I believe that Jesus was sinless...but I do believe he was YHVH's righteous prophet, for me, YHVH's main prophet, another Moses, annointed like King David. Analogous to what Mohammad is for Muslims.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 8 by Elijah John]

I would agree that they worship the same basic type of God, if that is what you mean. But I do still think they worship different Gods.

No, I mean they literally worship the same God, as there is only one God in the Universe. One true God anyway.

The Jewish God is said to have chosen Isaac not Ishmael. The Islamic God chose Ishmael not Isaac. Those are two different Gods because the same God could not have done both; logically they are mutually exclusive.

The Bible has evidence that El Shaddai did indeed "do both". The same "Jewish God" as you put it, also made Ishmael a promise that he too, would father a great Nation.

Yes, Muslims see Ishmael as the favored child, but that is a non-sequitor to conclude that two different Gods made two different promises. Very few Jews, and very few Muslims would agree with you that they worship two different Gods. They would both insist that it is the same God of Abraham, worshiped in different ways, under different names.

The Islamic God has Muhammad for a prophet; the Jewish God does not. Differences like these tell us that they are worshiping a different God, even if it is the same type of God (an eternal Creator that is immaterial and personal, etc.).

Again, non-sequitor. There is no "Jewish God" nor is there a "Muslim God" there is only the God of Abraham.

Do you worship either of those Gods? Or do you just worship the same general kind of God but think that Jews and Muslims believe some really false things about the true God?

From my Christian perspective, I think Jews and Muslims both tend to be a bit legalistic. But Roman Catholics, Evangelicals and Jehvovah's Witnesses also have ingrained, legalisms to their varied approaches.

But I would say we still, all worship the same God. But absolute Monotheists do not worship Jesus too.

I worship the same God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, Moses, King David, Jesus and Mohammad. They all worshiped the same God, and their disciples worship the same God of Abraham, but in somewhat different ways, and under different names.

But scholars have drawn linguistic connections between "Elohim" and "Allah".

I'm not thrilled Muslims reject the name of YHVH, but I still see them worshiping YHVH under a different name. Again, remember that YHVH was once known as "El Shaddai" a different name, but not a different God.

Let me put it this way, if Muslims truly worshiped a "different God" wouldn't they have renounced Judeo-Christian heritage entirely?

But they didn't do this, instead the Qur'an acknowedges that God (singular) gave Moses the Torah, King David the Psalms, and Jesus the Gospel.

They claim Judeo-Christian heritage, they do not claim Hindu heritage, nor do they claim pagan heritage.

Why do you think all three major religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are called "Abrahamic religions"?

Did Abraham have only One God, or did he have three "different gods"?

Yes, all well and good to point out that Muslims worship God in a different way, even in some ways, false ways, but to therefore conclude that they worship a "false God" does not make any sense to me.

[Elijah John]

I know of one prominent Trintarian Christian who believed that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God, Pope John Paul II taught this.

And it is logical to assume that many RCs believe this.

Do we have any Evangelicals or Jehovah's witnesses who believe this as well?

Or do y'all march in lock-step on this matter?

Actually, I thought of one prominent Evangelical who believes that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God, and that Evangelical is President George W Bush.

Do we have any others?

[The Tanager]

The Bible has evidence that El Shaddai did indeed "do both". The same "Jewish God" as you put it, also made Ishmael a promise that he too, would father a great Nation.

Yes, Muslims see Ishmael as the favored child, but that is a non-sequitor to conclude that two different Gods made two different promises.

God couldn't have logically 'done both' in the way I meant it, but I didn't spell it all out so I can see why that could cause confusion. I was saying the same God could not have logically (ultimately) favored Ishmael over Isaac and Isaac over Ishmael. That doesn't make logical sense. You can't favor someone, in the same way, both more and less than another. For the Jewish God and the Islamic God to be the same God of Abraham you'd have to say the illogical statement above is true.

Very few Jews, and very few Muslims would agree with you that they worship two different Gods. They would both insist that it is the same God of Abraham, worshiped in different ways, under different names.

There are certainly some that would say this, but many also that think the other is worshipping a false view of the God of Abraham, not the same Being but only in a different way. These are different religions for a reason. Someone like Maimonides may have not considerd Muslims idolatrous, but still viewed Islam as heretical. Heretics and orthodox don't worship the same God in different ways. The worship Gods that have different characteristics and histories than each other.

Again, non-sequitor. There is no "Jewish God" nor is there a "Muslim God" there is only the God of Abraham.

I'm definitely not saying there are two Gods out there. I'm saying that at least one of the complete conceptions of the Gods being spoken about doesn't exist in reality.

There is only one of The Tanager's Dad in reality. I say he is a figure in the club volleyball world. Jimmy says The Tanager's Dad is a professional football player. My 'The Tanager's dad' and Jimmy's 'The Tanager's dad' are not the same. One exists and one doesn't. One of us is wrong about what we claim about God.

Let me put it this way, if Muslims truly worshiped a "different God" wouldn't they have renounced Judeo-Christian heritage entirely?

No. All they would have to do is say that the Jews and the Christians distorted things. And that is exactly what they say. They say the Jews got it wrong with things like which of Abraham's sons was the most favored. They say Christians got it wrong about Jesus.

But they didn't do this, instead the Qur'an acknowedges that God (singular) gave Moses the Torah, King David the Psalms, and Jesus the Gospel.

Not in the same way that Jews and Christians talk about what the Torah is and what the Gospel is. It is redefining those terms. Muslims think they are restoring what those truly mean because the Jews and Christians distorted them.

They claim Judeo-Christian heritage, they do not claim Hindu heritage, nor do they claim pagan heritage.

They don't claim the Jewish view of that heritage; they claim a reinterpreted (or restored, if they are correct) view of that heritage.

Why do you think all three major religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are called "Abrahamic religions"?

Because they all say different things about who the God of Abraham is. Why do you think they don't call these three the Abrahamic Religion (with no -s)?

Did Abraham have only One God, or did he have three "different gods"?

Something all three agree on. They don't agree on everything else. That means different religions and different conceptions of God that can't all be true because they contradict each other.

Yes, all well and good to point out that Muslims worship God in a different way, even in some ways, false ways, but to therefore conclude that they worship a "false God" does not make any sense to me.

To become a Muslim you must sincerely recite the Shahada. You must not only say you believe in the One true God, but assert that Muhammad is God's messenger. Not just a messenger, but the final messenger with the full revelation of God's truth. That means you must believe all of what Muhammad says about God to be true. If you can't sincerely recite this you are not considered to be a believer in Allah. You may receive different treatment than other non-believers as a Jew or Christian or Zoroastrian, but you aren't a believer in Allah. That's my understanding, anyway.

[The Tanager]

I know of one prominent Trintarian Christian who believed that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God, Pope John Paul II taught this.

And it is logical to assume that many RCs believe this.

But what is the context of that statement? The Pope goes on to say "We know that in the light of the full Revelation in Christ, this mysterious oneness cannot be reduced to a numerical unity....However, this correspondence must not let us forget the difference between the two religions. We know that the unity of God is expressed in the mystery of the three divine Persons."

The Pope's God is a tri-personal Being. The Muslim doesn't worship a tri-personal God. Therefore, they don't worship the same God as the Pope. That goes against Tawhid. One God is tri-personal, the other isn't; they can't be the same God.

If the Pope meant the statement above in the way you seem to mean it, the Pope is being inconsistent. The Pope is really saying Muslims have the wrong picture of God. They are closer than some other groups, but it is still false. The actual God doesn't contain any falsities.

Do we have any Evangelicals or Jehovah's witnesses who believe this as well?

Or do y'all march in lock-step on this matter?

Actually, I thought of one prominent Evangelical who believes that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God, and that Evangelical is President George W Bush.

Do we have any others?

I'm not sure political speeches are the best gauge of one's actual beliefs about God, but if President Bush really thought they were the same, I think he was being illogical or ignorant of the traditions he was comparing.

[Elijah John]

The actual God doesn't contain any falsities.

No, the actual God doesn't, but actual religions do. Including Christianity, Judaism and Islam. The more claims a religion makes, the more likely it departs for pure and simple truth.

Islam and Judaism have far few claims than Trinitarian Christianity.

There is no religion that is 100% true.

Also, the divergence in religion stems from the divergent cultures that have shaped them.

It is not the One God ( the same God who inspires these religions) who is divergent, but rather the various cultural responses (religions) that have divergence with each other.

But it seems to me you and so many Evangelicals and JWs ignore the essential similarities, and focus instead on the differences.

Yes, Triitarianism and absolute Monotheism cannot both be true. But did it ever occur to you that Trinitarianism is the error, and that absolute Monotheism is the Truth?

Or that the original Christians were Shema-observant, absolute Monotheists?

Yes, of course the Pope believes the RCC has the "fullness of Revelation". But in his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope he states that the Holy Spirit also inspired whatever is beautiful and true in other religions, most closely Judaism and Islam.

[Elijah John]

Something all three agree on. They don't agree on everything else. That means different religions and different conceptions of God that can't all be true because they contradict each other.

The religions contradict each other, but only on peripheral matters. The essence of the three great religions does not contradict. They all three believe in the ONE, transcendent, ethical Creator of the Universe, who first revealed Himself to Abraham.

To become a Muslim you must sincerely recite the Shahada. You must not only say you believe in the One true God, but assert that Muhammad is God's messenger. Not just a messenger, but the final messenger with the full revelation of God's truth. That means you must believe all of what Muhammad says about God to be true. If you can't sincerely recite this you are not considered to be a believer in Allah. You may receive different treatment than other non-believers as a Jew or Christian or Zoroastrian, but you aren't a believer in Allah. That's my understanding, anyway.

No, one may not be an adherent of traditional Islam, but that does not mean that one does not believe in Allah. (THE God) just because one does not accept Mohammed. Muslims believe that Christians and Jews also believe in Allah, but that Trinitarian Christians have, (in an act of Shirk), added the idolatry of Jesus-worship into the mix.

I have read Muslim apologetics making great cases from the New Testament that Jesus is not "God" and that Jesus too, was an absolute Monotheist, who believed in the Father. These Muslim apologists have identified the Father, the God of Jesus as the same God Allah.

I have also read Jewish apologetics that have reached similar conclusions, that Jesus was thoroughly Jewish and as such believed the Father alone is God. These Jewish apologists also often rely on the NT to make their case as well.