JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

[Candle]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

YHVH is a Spirit. Spirits are invisible.

Jesus is not the Spirit of YHVH. He is his image.

YHVH is invisible. If you want to see him, Jesus is what he looks like.

Isaiah 61 - The Spirit of YHVH rests on the image of YHVH.

So, Jesus IS God in that He is his image. Jesus is NOT God in that He is NOT the Spirit.

Here's the critical question: "Why did Jesus stop in the middle of a sentence, and then sit down?"

Jesus can't both be God and not be God.

He didn't stop in the middle of a sentence. He quoted Isaiah 61:1,2 and then sat down. After that he said, "Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled." (Luke 4:18 and 21) What is your point?

Verse 2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD and the day of vengeance of our God." He did not read the entire sentence. He was there to proclaim the acceptable year, which is the duration of His ministry. He was not there to proclaim the day of vengeance of our God.

He can be the image of God without being the spirit of God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Candle in post #581]
It is true that Jesus was and is the image of God. However, this does not make him God.

When he quoted Isaiah 61 this shows that he and God are not the same individual. God's name is there in the original language (YHWH, or, Jehovah) where "LORD" is in all upper case letters, and Jehovah is anointing Jesus (as Jesus indicated when he quoted it), showing that they are not the same individual nor is Jesus God the Most High.

[Candle]

[Replying to Candle in post #581]
It is true that Jesus was and is the image of God. However, this does not make him God.

When he quoted Isaiah 61 this shows that he and God are not the same individual. God's name is there in the original language (YHWH, or, Jehovah) where "LORD" is in all upper case letters, and Jehovah is anointing Jesus (as Jesus indicated when he quoted it), showing that they are not the same individual nor is Jesus God the Most High.

That means the body you are walking around in is not you.

As long as you want to cite Isaiah, let's look at chapter 66. Here is where we see that YHVH comes to destroy his enemies. After that he makes a new heaven and a new earth. So, this is a prophecy regarding the end time destruction of Babylon and the establishing of the Kingdom on the earth.

Revelation 19-20 tell us that Jesus does it. Hmmm....

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Candle in post #581]
It is true that Jesus was and is the image of God. However, this does not make him God.

When he quoted Isaiah 61 this shows that he and God are not the same individual. God's name is there in the original language (YHWH, or, Jehovah) where "LORD" is in all upper case letters, and Jehovah is anointing Jesus (as Jesus indicated when he quoted it), showing that they are not the same individual nor is Jesus God the Most High.

That means the body you are walking around in is not you.

As long as you want to cite Isaiah, let's look at chapter 66. Here is where we see that YHVH comes to destroy his enemies. After that he makes a new heaven and a new earth. So, this is a prophecy regarding the end time destruction of Babylon and the establishing of the Kingdom on the earth.

Revelation 19-20 tell us that Jesus does it. Hmmm....

Jesus does it with Jehovah's approval and power. That ties them both together as coming at the end of the system of things. Let's not side-step Isaiah 61. There are two Persons mentioned there, and one is Jehovah and the other is the Messiah. They are not one Person. And what do you mean by "the body you are walking around in is not you"? I find no sense in that statement.

[Revelations won]

Dear Onewithhim,

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42;

My response: Matt.26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matt. 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

My response: He was certainly praying unto his father. This only becomes a problem with the JW,s because of your “private interpretation” that Jehovah is God the Father.

John 11:41,42
41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.


John 17:These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
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They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
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As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20

My response: Christ prayed unto the Father. The scripture does not say Jehovah.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

You said: Would he have been praying to himself?

My response: Certainly not. Your problem is that you, like the unbelieving Jews of his day rejected their creator and falsely assumed that Jehovah was God the Father.

You said: He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself.

My response: It is very clear that he identified himself as “I AM” to which the Jews who rejected him understood exactly what he said and sought to stone him to death.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

My response: John 5: 19-20 introduces a flood of doctrine which I suspect you are unprepared to address.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 8:56
56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


John 10:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37
I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38
I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.


John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

(Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact)

(John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

You asked “Can he be his own Son?”

My response: You arrive at this self inflicted conclusion because you feign claim that Jehovah is God the Father.

God, the Father did not create the heavens and the earth upon which we live. They were created under his direction by His Son Jehovah (Christ).

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

(I would ask: What is the prison of whom Isaiah seeks? You should clearly observe that he speaks NOT of prisons, of of “the prison” in the singular. This obviously has reference to the “spirit prison” where according to the NT Christ went and preached to those who were disobedient in the days of Noah.)

(You should also note that in Isaiah’s revelation he stated the the Lord God has anointed me (Jehovah) to do the following in verse 1. )

My response: The JW interpretation is a manmade interpretation constructed by the philosophies of man, mingled with scripture and is clearly of “private interpretation”, for there is claimed no direct revelation from God to arrive at this conclusion.)



2
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
4
And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

You said: “He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself” Are you implying that this is to mean Jehovah?


Luke 4:
at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

My response: This is again your “private interpretation”,since this is not what the scripture states.

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?

My response: Again this is a JW “private interpretation“ of the scriptures.

The big JW problem is that the JW’s have removed all references to “ God the Father” and substituted the word “Jehovah” in it’s place. Where did you obtain authority to “take from” and “add to the scriptures”??? Obviously you have no authority to do so.

This is merely the action and private man made decision of your own creation by your JW scholars in the NWT JW translation.

Kind regards,
RW

[Candle]

[Replying to Candle in post #581]
It is true that Jesus was and is the image of God. However, this does not make him God.

When he quoted Isaiah 61 this shows that he and God are not the same individual. God's name is there in the original language (YHWH, or, Jehovah) where "LORD" is in all upper case letters, and Jehovah is anointing Jesus (as Jesus indicated when he quoted it), showing that they are not the same individual nor is Jesus God the Most High.

That means the body you are walking around in is not you.

As long as you want to cite Isaiah, let's look at chapter 66. Here is where we see that YHVH comes to destroy his enemies. After that he makes a new heaven and a new earth. So, this is a prophecy regarding the end time destruction of Babylon and the establishing of the Kingdom on the earth.

Revelation 19-20 tell us that Jesus does it. Hmmm....

Jesus does it with Jehovah's approval and power. That ties them both together as coming at the end of the system of things. Let's not side-step Isaiah 61. There are two Persons mentioned there, and one is Jehovah and the other is the Messiah. They are not one Person. And what do you mean by "the body you are walking around in is not you"? I find no sense in that statement.

It does not sway "Jesus does it with Jehovah's approval." It says Jesus does it. It says YHVH does it. Your eisegesis undermines the credibility of your claim.

The same person is doing the deed. That person is identified 2 different ways. Isaiah 61 says, "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;..."

YHVH's spirit is upon his image. His image is the physical manifestation of him. (Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 3:16)

Your body is the physical manifestation of you. Your body is not you in the sense that it is the sum total of you. But, it is 100% you. It is not someone else. The breath of YHVH in your physical body makes you a living thing. The breath of YHVH in Jesus made Him a living thing. His identity is YHVH. He is the image of YHVH.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Candle in post #586]
Jesus truly identifies with YHWH (Jehovah), as he is the image of Jehovah....not Jehovah Himself. (Colossians 1:15) Isaiah 61 clearly shows this to be true. Jehovah is anointing the Messiah and sending the Messiah....He is not anointing Himself. Come let us REASON together (Isaiah 1:18, KJV) and not submit to smoke and mirrors.

[Candle]

[Replying to Candle in post #586]
Jesus truly identifies with YHWH (Jehovah), as he is the image of Jehovah....not Jehovah Himself. (Colossians 1:15) Isaiah 61 clearly shows this to be true. Jehovah is anointing the Messiah and sending the Messiah....He is not anointing Himself. Come let us REASON together (Isaiah 1:18, KJV) and not submit to smoke and mirrors.

The only smoke and mirror problem is the belief that whatever you have been taught, or imagine, cannot be questioned.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

To be an entity that is "manifest in the flesh" can only mean one thing.
THAT ENTITY has become a human person. No amount of circumlocution will alter the plain language of the text.

The built-in limitations of human understanding often try to limit YHVH in what he is and what he can do, as well as what he means when he says something.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Candle in post #586]
Jesus truly identifies with YHWH (Jehovah), as he is the image of Jehovah....not Jehovah Himself. (Colossians 1:15) Isaiah 61 clearly shows this to be true. Jehovah is anointing the Messiah and sending the Messiah....He is not anointing Himself. Come let us REASON together (Isaiah 1:18, KJV) and not submit to smoke and mirrors.

The only smoke and mirror problem is the belief that whatever you have been taught, or imagine, cannot be questioned.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

That Scriipture has been shown to be corrupted, and anyone can see that if they compare different Bible versions and even go back to the original language in an Interlinear Bible. It doesn't say that GOD was manifest in the flesh. The original says that HE was manifest in the flesh, and that "he" refers to Jesus Christ and the sacred secret of godly devotion---NOT "God". Do some research on this.

[tigger 2]

Post by Revelations won above:

“The big JW problem is that the JW’s have removed all references to “ God the Father” and substituted the word “Jehovah” in it’s place. Where did you obtain authority to “take from” and “add to the scriptures”??? Obviously you have no authority to do so.

”This is merely the action and private man made decision of your own creation by your JW scholars in the NWT JW translation.”
Please show us where any use of “God the Father” in the NT Greek text has been replaced with “Jehovah.”

Here are just a few uses of “God the Father” in the NWT: 1Cor. 8:6; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 6:23; Col. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; 2 Tim, 1:2; Titus 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 1:17; etc.

So how have all uses of “God the Father" been replaced?