JESUS IS NOT YHWH

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JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #591

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to tigger 2 in post #590]

Just to add my $.02......As has been said, everywhere "LORD" in all uppercase letters appears in the Old Testament, that is where men have taken away "Jehovah" (YHWH) and inserted "LORD" instead. JWs didn't take it upon themselves to slide Jehovah's name in there in those instances where his name appears in the NWTranslation. It already appears in the original text, as anyone can see who examines a Jewish Bible. JWs stay true to the text. "YHWH" appears 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. There is evidence that the Divine Name also appeared in the New Testament until somewhere in the 2nd century when it was removed and substituted with "Lord." Certainly wherever the Old Testament was quoted by Jesus and others, Jehovah's name would have been part of the quotation, as it appeared in the Hebrew text which was being quoted.

Example: Joel 2:32: "And everyone who calls on the name of [YHWH]/Jehovah will be saved."

Quotation by Paul in the book of Acts (Acts 2:21: "And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." Why should "Lord" be put there in place of Jehovah when the Divine Name appears there in the Hebrew Scriptures? Paul QUOTES Joel 2:32 which contains God's personal name.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #592

Post by tam »

Peace to you all.

Been a while since I was on this thread. This might already have been responded to, but I'm just moving forward...
quote="Revelations won" post_id=1081308 time=1655042593 user_id=3040]
Dear Onewithhim,

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42;

My response: Matt.26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matt. 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

My response: He was certainly praying unto his father. This only becomes a problem with the JW,s because of your “private interpretation” that Jehovah is God the Father.
Indeed, He was praying to His Father.

The Father is [YHWH].

This is not a private jw interpretation (although "Jehovah" is wrong, it is not an accurate rendering of YHWH).


Most will agree that the One whom the Jews claimed as their God is [YHWH], yes? Well, Christ said that One is His Father:

If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. John 8:54

You said: He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself.

My response: It is very clear that he identified himself as “I AM” to which the Jews who rejected him understood exactly what he said and sought to stone him to death.
"...Before Abraham was, I am."

(Or, depending upon the translation used: Before Abraham was, I am he)

Neither of these is making a claim to be [YHWH]. That sentence would not make sense. Before Abraham was, [YHWH]... ?? < - that doesn't make sense.

Christ is simply stating that He is/exists before Abraham. That (timing) is the context even:

The Jews had JUST said,

"You are not yet fifty years old, yet you have seen Abraham?"

Christ responded,

"Truly, truly I tell you, before Abraham was, I am."


Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

(I would ask: What is the prison of whom Isaiah seeks? You should clearly observe that he speaks NOT of prisons, of of “the prison” in the singular. This obviously has reference to the “spirit prison” where according to the NT Christ went and preached to those who were disobedient in the days of Noah.)

(You should also note that in Isaiah’s revelation he stated the the Lord God has anointed me (Jehovah) to do the following in verse 1. )
I'm not entirely sure who is speaking in the quoted remarks above, but Isaiah 61:1 should read as:

"The spirit of the Lord [YHWH] is upon me; because [YHWH] has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek...."



If you are using a KJV version, "Lord GOD" is translated from "adonai YHWH". (Lord YHWH).

You can see that for yourself in the following link:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa ... onc_740001


I also have a physical copy of the 1984 version of the NIV translation. In it, Isaiah 61:1 is rendered:

"The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news..."

In the preface of the NIV translated bible, the authors explain how they rendered the name of God. I quote:
"In regard to the divine name YHWH, commonly referred to as the Tetragrammaton, the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of rendering the name as "LORD" in capital letters to distinguish it from Adonai, another Hebrew word rendered "Lord" for which small letters are used. Wherever the two names stand together in the Old Testament as a compound name of God, they are rendered "Sovereign LORD."


Therefore, again, Isaiah 61 would read as:

"The Spirit of the Lord [YHWH] is on me, because [YHWH] has anointed me to preach good news..."

Christ is the 'me'. [YHWH] is the One who is anointing Him (Christ).


Luke 4:
at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

My response: This is again your “private interpretation”,since this is not what the scripture states.
Actually that is what the scripture is stating. Please see explanations above.

(Please note that this doesn't mean the WTS/JW religion is true - there is no true religion. But keep in mind that all religions have some truth in them - how else to mislead those seeking truth, even the elect? But all religions also have lies in them. The only one who IS the Truth, who speaks only truth, who leads His sheep in ALL truth, the One to whom God says to listen: is Christ.)

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?

My response: Again this is a JW “private interpretation“ of the scriptures.

Keep in mind how translators chose to render the divine name of God (quoted above).

[The LORD] said to my Lord...

Therefore, this reads:

[YHWH] said to my Lord...


Christ says that David is the one speaking at Matt 22:44, 45. Peter also says that David is the one speaking in Acts 2:34, 35 as well. Therefore, speaking by the spirit, David said:

"[YHWH] said to my Lord..."

Christ is the 'my Lord', of whom David is speaking.



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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #593

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:21 am [Replying to tigger 2 in post #590]

Just to add my $.02......As has been said, everywhere "LORD" in all uppercase letters appears in the Old Testament, that is where men have taken away "Jehovah" (YHWH) and inserted "LORD" instead.
Yes.
JWs didn't take it upon themselves to slide Jehovah's name in there in those instances where his name appears in the NWTranslation.


In some places, yes, they did.

Such as at 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18.
It already appears in the original text, as anyone can see who examines a Jewish Bible. JWs stay true to the text. "YHWH" appears 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. There is evidence that the Divine Name also appeared in the New Testament until somewhere in the 2nd century when it was removed and substituted with "Lord." Certainly wherever the Old Testament was quoted by Jesus and others, Jehovah's name would have been part of the quotation, as it appeared in the Hebrew text which was being quoted.
If it is a definite direct quote from the OT, then it makes sense (to me) to read it that way.

But not to stick it in, in other places, such as 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18. That is misleading.

We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.


And in whose image are we being transformed?

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Romans 8:29

And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man. 1 Corinth 15:49

Also, Christ is the One who sets us free, right? (John 8:36, Galatians 5:1)

The Spirit who is the Lord here, in the Corinthians verse, is Christ.


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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #594

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to tam in post #592]
You say that "Jehovah" is the wrong way to pronounce God's name. But wait.....there is no absolute way to pronounce his name, because nobody has heard the correct way to pronounce it. Therefore, "Jehovah" is as acceptable as any pronunciation. However it is pronounced---whether "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" or any of the multiple ways it could be said---it is acceptable. All the pronunciations are coming from the Tetragrammaton, "YHWH," and people know or should know that the Most High God is the one who is represented there. So however the name is pronounced, God Almighty is the one being referred to.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #595

Post by tigger 2 »

onewithhim wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:56 am [Replying to tam in post #592]
You say that "Jehovah" is the wrong way to pronounce God's name. But wait.....there is no absolute way to pronounce his name, because nobody has heard the correct way to pronounce it. Therefore, "Jehovah" is as acceptable as any pronunciation. However it is pronounced---whether "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" or any of the multiple ways it could be said---it is acceptable. All the pronunciations are coming from the Tetragrammaton, "YHWH," and people know or should know that the Most High God is the one who is represented there. So however the name is pronounced, God Almighty is the one being referred to.
Why do we call the Messiah “Jesus”? It is pronounced “Yay-soos” in the NT Greek text. It is “Yehoshua” (Joshua shared the same name) in the Hebrew text. We call him “Jesus” in English (different pronunciations in other languages) because that is the traditional usage in English.

Since this is God’s name as used by the trinitarian Church, why the big fuss by them about the very same ‘problem’ with “Jehovah”?

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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #596

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
tigger 2 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:22 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:56 am [Replying to tam in post #592]
You say that "Jehovah" is the wrong way to pronounce God's name. But wait.....there is no absolute way to pronounce his name, because nobody has heard the correct way to pronounce it. Therefore, "Jehovah" is as acceptable as any pronunciation. However it is pronounced---whether "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" or any of the multiple ways it could be said---it is acceptable. All the pronunciations are coming from the Tetragrammaton, "YHWH," and people know or should know that the Most High God is the one who is represented there. So however the name is pronounced, God Almighty is the one being referred to.
Why do we call the Messiah “Jesus”? It is pronounced “Yay-soos” in the NT Greek text. It is “Yehoshua” (Joshua shared the same name) in the Hebrew text. We call him “Jesus” in English (different pronunciations in other languages) because that is the traditional usage in English.

Since this is God’s name as used by the trinitarian Church, why the big fuss by them about the very same ‘problem’ with “Jehovah”?

I don't call the Messiah "Jesus". As soon as I learned that this was not true, that "Jesus" was not the name of my Lord, I could no longer use it. I could not apply something I knew to be UNTRUE to the One who is the TRUTH.

Tradition is not a good reason to use (or continue to do) something that is not true. That goes for "Jesus" and "Jehovah" both. So there is no inconsistency from me on this matter.


The name of my Lord is Jaheshua (meaning JAH saves/savior of JAH). He has the name of His Father in His own name (as did many prophets - how much more so the One who came in the name of His Father?) My Lord confirmed to me that this is His name.

As for the name of God, even if you do not know how to pronounce "YHWH" (though I recognized the truth of "JAHVEH" the first time I heard it, the "J" having the "Y" sound), we do have an accurate account of His name at Psalm 68:4. That may be the shortened form, but it is still His name.




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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #597

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:44 pm Peace to you,
tigger 2 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:22 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:56 am [Replying to tam in post #592]
You say that "Jehovah" is the wrong way to pronounce God's name. But wait.....there is no absolute way to pronounce his name, because nobody has heard the correct way to pronounce it. Therefore, "Jehovah" is as acceptable as any pronunciation. However it is pronounced---whether "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" or any of the multiple ways it could be said---it is acceptable. All the pronunciations are coming from the Tetragrammaton, "YHWH," and people know or should know that the Most High God is the one who is represented there. So however the name is pronounced, God Almighty is the one being referred to.
Why do we call the Messiah “Jesus”? It is pronounced “Yay-soos” in the NT Greek text. It is “Yehoshua” (Joshua shared the same name) in the Hebrew text. We call him “Jesus” in English (different pronunciations in other languages) because that is the traditional usage in English.

Since this is God’s name as used by the trinitarian Church, why the big fuss by them about the very same ‘problem’ with “Jehovah”?

I don't call the Messiah "Jesus". As soon as I learned that this was not true, that "Jesus" was not the name of my Lord, I could no longer use it. I could not apply something I knew to be UNTRUE to the One who is the TRUTH.
It is not untrue. "Jesus" is known to be the pronunciation of Yeshua's name by millions of people, depending on the language they speak. English speakers use "Jesus" or even "Iesus" (as is presented in the 1611 version of the KJV), and Hebrew speakers would say "Jehoshua" or "Yeshua" or "Yehoshua".....someone in Samoa or India would pronounce it differently. Most everyone in the world will know who you mean when a person says "Jesus."

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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #598

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:46 am
tam wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:44 pm Peace to you,
tigger 2 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:22 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:56 am [Replying to tam in post #592]
You say that "Jehovah" is the wrong way to pronounce God's name. But wait.....there is no absolute way to pronounce his name, because nobody has heard the correct way to pronounce it. Therefore, "Jehovah" is as acceptable as any pronunciation. However it is pronounced---whether "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" or any of the multiple ways it could be said---it is acceptable. All the pronunciations are coming from the Tetragrammaton, "YHWH," and people know or should know that the Most High God is the one who is represented there. So however the name is pronounced, God Almighty is the one being referred to.
Why do we call the Messiah “Jesus”? It is pronounced “Yay-soos” in the NT Greek text. It is “Yehoshua” (Joshua shared the same name) in the Hebrew text. We call him “Jesus” in English (different pronunciations in other languages) because that is the traditional usage in English.

Since this is God’s name as used by the trinitarian Church, why the big fuss by them about the very same ‘problem’ with “Jehovah”?

I don't call the Messiah "Jesus". As soon as I learned that this was not true, that "Jesus" was not the name of my Lord, I could no longer use it. I could not apply something I knew to be UNTRUE to the One who is the TRUTH.
It is not untrue. "Jesus" is known to be the pronunciation of Yeshua's name by millions of people, depending on the language they speak.
Based on tradition, as tigger just said. Not based on truth. Joshua would be closest in English (though not entirely accurate, and it should still be with a 'y' sound). But not "Jesus". His name was never "Jesus" (I don't think that is in real dispute). My Lord's name contains the name of His Father, in whose name He came (as did many prophets, such as Elijah). His name has real meaning (as does His Father's name). Jaheshua: JAH saves/savior of JAH.


So why the big objection? Tigger suggested in response to my post that 'trinitarians' (which I am not one) make a big fuss. He seemed to be attempting to dismiss the statement that "Jehovah" is not accurate, by claiming that those who object are not being consistent because they use the name "Jesus" (also not accurate). Not only is that an attempt to justify one wrong with another wrong (how does that make sense?), but it was also untrue of me. I simply made apoint about "Jehovah" being inaccurate, for the sake of truth and clarity, and I am being consistent.

Your religion makes such a big fuss about not touching something unclean (things you think are tainted from idolatry), yet you have a problem with me for not being able to associate something I know to be false with the name of God and the name of His Son? Where is the consistency in that?


**

As for the point and post that went ignored, the JW religion inserts "Jehovah" in places that is not justified in doing, in places that are not a direct quote from the OT. Such as the Corinthians verse discussed in the previous posts, and also at Romans 14:8. That discussion can be found here:

viewtopic.php?p=841355#p841355



**

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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #599

Post by tam »

Peace again to you,

The fact remains that "Jehovah" is incorrect.

You certainly do not have to take my word for it. Your own literature acknowledges it:
Vowel signs in Hebrew copies of the Bible came into use first in the seventh century of our Common Era. These signs indicated which vowel sounds were to be used when reading the all-consonant Hebrew text. But because of the superstition of not pronouncing the Divine Name, the vowel signs for Elohim (God) and Adonay (Lord) were inserted to warn the reader to say those words instead of the Divine Name. By combining those warning vowel signs with the four Hebrew consonants, the pronunciations Yehowihʹ and Yehowahʹ were formed, from which we derive “Jehovah” in the English language. It was thus introduced into English translations of the Bible, including the King James Version of about 350 years ago.

Although the exact pronunciation of the Divine Name in Hebrew is not known today, what pronunciation might be the closest? A recent Roman Catholic version, The Holy Bible, edited by Monsignor T. O’Connell, commenting on Exodus 3:14, says: “I am who am: apparently this utterance is the source of the word Yahweh, the proper personal name of the God of Israel.” The Revised Standard Version states: “It is almost if not quite certain that the Name was originally pronounced ‘Yahweh.’” The Evening Star article said: “If the name were to be spelled out it would be more correct to spell it as ‘Yahweh.’”

Yes, many Bible scholars acknowledge that “Yahweh” more nearly represents the Hebrew pronunciation of the Divine Name. But this also shows the inexcusability of the religions of Christendom for taking the Divine Name away from Bible translations and everyday worship! If the pronunciation “Yahweh,” or even another, is said to be more correct, then why do they not use it? What sense does it make to admit a more correct pronunciation and then eliminate its usage altogether? Truly, it is outright hypocrisy to defend one pronunciation over another and then never use either!
w64 7/15 p. 422-423

"Jehovah" was based upon and derived from an erroneous insertion of the vowels from Elohim and Adonay (which were used to warn people NOT to say the Divine Name).



Please note that the article mentions the fact that scholars state "Yahweh" is the more accurate pronunciation... then the article denigrates those scholars for not using what they know to be the more accurate pronunciation. And yet (as the article continues):
What pronunciation do Jehovah’s witnesses view as more correct? On page 25 of the foreword of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in 1950, the translators stated that they inclined “to view the pronunciation ‘Yah.weh,’ as the more correct way.”
Yet they use what they acknowledge as the more inaccurate pronunciation! And this, after they JUST admonished the translators in "Christendom" for not using the more accurate name. That is some pretty bold and blatant hypocrisy.

If the publishing agency for Jehovah’s witnesses recognizes that “Yahweh” is more correct, why do they use “Jehovah” in their translation, writing and worship instead? Because the form “Jehovah” has been familiar to people for many centuries, and that form of The Name, just as faithfully as other forms, preserves the sounds of the four consonants of the tetragrammaton.
So they use it anyway (even admitting that "Yahweh" is more correct), based on familiarity. Tradition.

Not based on truth.

It is not even closest to the truth, by their own admittance.


Nor does it preserve the sounds of the four consonants, despite their claim. "Y" and (a hard) "J" do not make the same sound. And English has a 'y' sound.




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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #600

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to tam in post #599]

You may try as you may to belittle the name "Jehovah," but many people will use it because it is the most popular pronunciation, thanks to the 1611 version of the Holy Bible and the English pronunciation shortly after that (from "Iehovah" to "Jehovah"). Someone brought out the point of....if "Yahweh" is the closest pronunciation, why not use it? People avoid any mention of the Father, sadly. Surely Yehoshua guides you to praise his Father, as he does himself.

Remind me please.....what do you call the Father?

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