JESUS IS NOT YHWH

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JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

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Post #521

Post by Falling Light 101 »

[font=Arial]
Hello.

The poster 101G is claiming that God is a person. However, the Bible nowhere states that The Father, Son nor the Spirit are a Person - or PERSONs.
But - There is no such a title ever given to God. The Bible makes it very clear that God is “ 1 “ SINGLE being or deity and “ 1 “ singular Magistrate - Alone
“ 1 “ singular Creator - Alone
“ 1 “ singular Deity - Alone
“ 1 “ singular Savior - Alone
“ 1 “ singular Magistrate - Alone
And
“ 1 “ singular Husband - Alone.

With the Trinity doctrine / formula that = ADDS to the manuscripts - Trinitarians have two Husbands and two Fathers.

Because when Yahoshua was asked as to the whereabouts , location and about the IDENTITY of His Father - Yahoshua looked them right in the eye and clearly stated “ You are looking at The Father - by looking at me..


Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Yahoshua saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


THIS IS BECAUSE YAHOSHUA IS LITERALLY - THE EXPRESSED IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE SPIRIT OF GOD’S CONFIDENCE.

THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE NOT EVEN A PERSON, in the Bible - AS TRINITARIANS DEMAND.

If You read the Original Manuscripts You will find that the Trinitarian translations of the Roman Catholic Church has changed the message of God’ s word.
The Roman Catholic Trinitarian Bible is mistranslated and in the translation of - “ Heb 11:1 “ and also “ Heb_1:3 . “

Error - Here, Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
If You study you will notice that the word “ SUBSTANCE “ is not even the correct / actual word in the original Greek manuscripts.
Error - Here, also here in Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person.
And here If You study you will notice that the word “ PERSON “ is also not even the correct / actual word in Greek manuscripts.

Never is God labeled as a person or persons. This is simply not in the manuscripts.
Please notice what the Trinitarians did here. These two words in these two verses above “ SUBSTANCE “ and “ PERSON “ are really / actually the same exact “ single “ Greek word G5287 hupostasis / hoop-os'-tas-is. hupostasis / hoop-os'-tas-is actually means “ Confidence “
- and not “ SUBSTANCE “ nor “ PERSON “ … … … ..

The actual meaning is - confidence = hupostasis = To set under, to (support), that is, assurance (objectively or subjectively): - confidence, confident. I now will list the five total times that this word “ Confidence “ hupostasis / hoop-os'-tas-is. is present in the manuscripts - and it only appears five total times only

Remember that the Roman Catholic translators changed Heb 1:1 and Heb 1:3 changing the word CONFIDENCE into the two separate and totally unrelated and completely different words of ( “ SUBSTANCE “ and “ PERSON “ ) I believe that Trinitarians attempted to create a new doctrine that tie the word substance and person and how it relates to their trinity teaching. But these words are not in these verses manuscripts whatsoever.

Let’ s take a look at the five total times that this word exists and is present in the New Testament Greek manuscripts.
1.. 2Co 9:4 in this same confident boasting.
2.. 2Co 11:17 in this confidence of boasting.
Here is the correct manuscript translation of Heb 1:3 - as it reads in the original. 3.. Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his confidence.
Here the original manuscripts say that Christ is the expressed image of Gods confidence. - Not Person.
The trinity translators changed this word.
4.. Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Here also is the Trinitarian mistranslation of Heb 11:1 - as it reads in the original.
5.. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the confidence of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Here the original manuscripts say that faith is the confidence of things hoped for. – Not substance. REMEMBER that the translators make this change, changing “ Confidence of things hoped for “ into “ SUBSTANCE “ of things hoped for. “ One single time only, in Heb 11:1.

And REMEMBER also that the translators made this change, changing “ the express image of his “ CONFIDENCE “ into “ the express image of his “ PERSON. “ - One single time only, in Heb 11:3.

But also The Bible is in harmony with basic reality and common sense basics and nature and the basic common universal grammar usages of all languages.

We do not see that the Bible goes out of its way to elaborate on this Trinity concept - Nor do we see a doctrine in scriptures that defies, confronts and disregards the meaning of the idea of singular person and a plural persons, declaring that the plural, single person of God and His entity are three distinct / separate persons. This is nowhere expressed in the Bible. I have noticed that Catholics and Trinitarians always disregard and change the basic dynamics of reality and grammar, language and common sense. The trinity doctrine elaborates on how that Jesus is a separate distinct { PERSON } from the Father - But one in nature with the Father, adding the word PERSON to the Catholic translation – But the word person is never, ever applied to God anywhere in the entire manuscripts. This teaching is not described in the Bible. And in the original manuscripts - Heb 11:3 never says that Christ is the PERSON of the expression of God = In image form. … .
In Heb 11:3. - Christ is the expressed image of Gods - confidence / not Person. Also we see that every person that we know of in all cases that we see in all situations everywhere - they are always an individual special, separate single entity and deity and a singular - individual person. We see that Trinitarians are saying that the idea of multiple “ PERSONS� are not really three entities or deities or gods.

But God is not even a Person in the Bible. - from the Manuscripts.
Notice that to Trinitarians, Jesus literality becomes a distinct / separate “ PERSON “ instead of the expressed image of The Holy Spirits His “ CONFIDENCE “ as the manuscripts say. I know that - NEITHER GOD NOR CHRIST ARE CALLED : PERSON : IN THE MANUSCRIPTS> The Trinitarians add the word person in Heb 11:3… …
The Bible is in harmony with basic reality and common sense basic nature. The Bible does not go out of its way to elaborate on this Trinity concept to define and changes the basic dynamics of reality and grammar and common sense that elaborates on how that Jesus is a separate distinct “ PERSON “ from the Father. This teaching is not described in the Bible. We see that the Bible says the opposite of the trinity idea, because here in Heb 1:3, Jesus is described as the Image of Gods “ CONFIDENCE “ And, If the trinity was a part of God, then Heb 1:3 would say that Christ is the image of Gods “ Plural “ CONFIDENCES “
I see nothing in the manuscripts about trinity or about the Catholic Church or a First, Second and Third person of the Trinity.
Would You like to see the many, many more mistranslations that Trinitarians have made in changing the manuscripts in God’ s word. ?
Please let me know what You think about the translators changing these two verses as I demonstrated above. Thank You and God bless You.
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Post #522

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 520 by Falling Light 101]

QUESTION: Is God a person?
  • A "person" can be defined as an individual, a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness (wikipedia). The Catholic Encyclopedia defines person as an existing individual "of a rational nature". So a "person" is a being, someone that exists with personality, rationality and a distinct separate character.
In view of the above, yes, God is indeed a person.


Further Reading
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009081
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Yahoshua, The Anointing - not - The Person or just SOMEONE

Post #523

Post by Falling Light 101 »

But my friend.

Please allow me to further prove that God is never once called as = a Person, in the Bible.

Please notice this verse - 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This word { the man } Christ Jesus is the Greek word = Arthropods / Arthropod.
The Bible does call Jesus a man - However, He nor The Father are called { A Person } ., { OR PERSONS } this is not in the Bible.

The Greek or Hebrew manuscript scriptures, never, NEVER, once define God or Yahoshua - as a “ PERSON “ Never once. In fact, the manuscripts purposefully and deliberately and clearly make a deliberate distinction and a specific point to separate the definition of a { A Person } - as separate - from the deity and face and the appearance of the Anointed / Christ body, that is Yahoshua.
And
Concerning the word that the Roman Catholic Trinitarians are claiming is the word person and defined as Yahoshua ---

Here is exactly how this word is used in the manuscripts and here is the actual definition and meaning of the word.
G4383 - π�ο�σωπον / prosōpon
Here in - Mat 22:16 Master…. neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the { π�ο�σωπον - prosōpon = ASPECT / appearance / confidence / face / } of men.
Mat 6:16 As the hypocrites …. they disfigure their { π�ο�σωπον - prosōpon = ASPECT appearance / confidence / face / }
Mat 26:67 Then did they spit in his { π�ο�σωπον - prosōpon = ASPECT appearance / confidence / face / }
Luk 2:31 Salvation -- Which thou hast prepared before the { π�ο�σωπον - prosōpon = ASPECT / appearance / confidence / face / } of all people;

Luk 17:16 And fell down on his { π�ο�σωπον - prosōpon = ASPECT appearance / confidence / face / }
2Co 2:10 for your sakes forgave I it in the { π�ο�σωπον - prosōpon = ASPECT / appearance / confidence / face / } of Christ;
2Co 3:7 the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the { π�ο�σωπον - prosōpon = ASPECT / appearance / confidence / face / } of Moses for the glory of his { π�ο�σωπον - prosōpon = ASPECT appearance / confidence / face / } had vanished.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the { π�ο�σωπον - prosōpon = ASPECT / appearance / confidence / face / } because he was to be blamed.
This is not the Greek word for just an ordinary general person. This has nothing to do with just saying a person.
The Trinitarian translators completely lied and purposefully and deliberately mistranslated this word to codify their trinity doctrine.
However, the actual Greek word for a :� PERSON “: in the manuscripts is Greek 1342 = τι�ς = tis / tis . this word is used 457 times in the New Testament Manuscripts. This is the word that means { A Person } in the Greek.
G5100 τι�ς / tis -= Person.
An indefinite pronoun; someone or any person. A (kind of), any (man, (every) man, one, some (man, -a body, whom [-soever]

God is never called { A Person } in the Bible. In fact of the 457 times that this word is used, it is always used describing a PERSON or in general “SOMEONE� - as here in - John 6:46

John 6:46 Not that any = { τι�ς PERSON / } hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, He hath seen the Father.

And Mat 12:47 Then = { τι�ς a PERSON / } said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no { τι�ς a PERSON / } deceive you.

Of the 455 other times that this word is used - Never is Jesus or God called { A Person } – OR { A SOMEONE }
never is God called a person or someone

I could post four whole pages of evidence showing that the meaning of { A Person } and never once “ NEVER “ “ NEVER “
is { A Person } or SOMEONE - ascribed or described to being defined as God or Jesus.

And I say respectfully, that all that I see for evidence presented are the writings and doodling, scribblings and the sketches of other men. Where is the Biblical evidence ?

Other men’s theories, doctrines and theologies. All Trinitarian faith that is simply not found in the scriptures of the manuscripts.
Where is the Biblical evidence ?

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Re: Yahoshua, The Anointing - not - The Person or just SOM

Post #524

Post by liamconnor »

[Replying to post 522 by Falling Light 101]

How many people in the Bible meet your stringent linguistic standard? Based on sheer vocabulary and linguistics, how many persons are there in the Bible? Are all the other "people" not "persons"?

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Post #525

Post by Falling Light 101 »

[font=Arial]Hello.

Thank You for replying to my post.

Please allow me to further explain

Another clear example is here how that we see also again, how the Trinitarian translators are trying to manipulate and render the text to indoctrinate a trinity teaching by changing the meaning of the original manuscripts.

But I do agree with You that "Jesus is The One True Spirit Of God" in the flesh. However, I find no Roman Catholic teaching called Trinity or PERSONS of God in the scriptures.

Also, we begin to notice how that the Trinitarian translators manipulated the Greek word “ FACE “ G4383 - π�ο´σωπον - proso¯pon / pros'-o-pon -= Meaning The visage; The front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; = (outward) appearance. * Please, just notice what the Trinitarians did here in Heb_9:24.
Heb_9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself now to appear in the G3588 presence G4383 of God for us:

* Please notice the Greek word “ THE “ G3588 Here in Heb_9:24 the Greek says that Christ will appear or manifest THE * ----- “ THE “ FACE OF GOD - - - * Not appear in the presence of God. The Greek word IN / EN is not in the verse. It was added in the trinitarian translation.

* Again the Trinitarians Act_3:19 Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT presence } G4383 of the Lord;

*Act_5:41 they departed from the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { * NOT presence } G4383 of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy

*2Co_10:1 the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { * NOT presence } G4383 is base among you,
* 2Co_2:10 I forgave it, for your sakes … in the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { * NOT person } G4383 of Christ;

The Greek word G4383 π�ο´σωπον - proso¯pon / pros'-o-pon -= Always means “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ It does not ever mean presence or personality or the character or person as we use in today's modern English vocabulary. . - This is a sad lie that Trinitarians have injected into their translation.

* In conclusion please here below in the next two verses below...... In these next two verses, the Trinitarian translators completely removed and deleted this Greek word G4383 “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ because completely = it totally destroys their manipulations, as they attempted to change the true meaning of the word G4383 “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as they attempted to change the message of the original texts.

The word “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ is completely deleted from the
Act_13:24 * When JohnG2491 had first preachedG4296 beforeG4253 hisG846 comingG1529 G4383 the baptismG908 of repentanceG3341 to allG3956 theG3588 peopleG2992 of Israel.G2474

* In Act_13:24 John preached of the coming “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Jesus. Why did the trinity translators leave it out? * Also, * 2Co_8:24 WhereforeG3767 shewG1731 ye toG1519 them,G846 andG2532 beforeG1519 G4383 theG3588 churches,G1577 theG3588 proofG1732 of yourG5216 love,G26 andG2532 of ourG2257 boastingG2746 on your behalf.G5228 G5216

In 2Co_8:24 there is the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the churches. Why did the trinity translators leave it out. This word is used 78 times in the Greek New Testament and it means “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ - not A Presence or A Person or a Personality Or a Characteristic or Character.

Here are just a few.
Mar_12:14 & Mat_22:16 neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the “ FACE “ personG4383 of men.
Luk_20:21 thou teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of any.
2Co_10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_6:16 they disfigure their“ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_6:17 wash thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_11:10 I send my messenger before thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ ,G4383
Mat_16:3 O ye hypocrites, ye candiscern the“ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the sky;
Mat_17:2 his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 did shineas the sun
Mat_17:6 they fell on their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_18:10 the angels behold the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of my Father
Mat_26:39 And he went a little further and fell on his face,G4383 and prayed
Mat_26:67 Then they spit in his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mar_1:2 I send my messenger before thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mar_14:65 cover his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Luk_1:76 the prophet of the Highest shalt go before the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the Lord
Luk_2:31 before the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of all people
Luk_9:29 his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 was altered and his raiment was white
Luk_9:53 Jesus’s “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk_12:56 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the sky
1Co_13:12 then “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 to face:G4383
1Co_14:25 falling down on his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
2Co_3:7 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Moses
2Co_4:6 the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Jesus Christ.
2Co_5:12 ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 and not in heart.
2Co_11:20 if a man smite you on the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Jas_1:23 a man beholding his natural “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 in a glass
1Pe_3:12 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Rev_9:7 on their headswere as it were crowns and their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as the facesG4383 of men.
Rev_10:1 a rainbow was upon his head and his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as the sun
Rev_11:16 fell upon their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 and worshipped God,
Rev_22:4 And they shall see his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Also..... Another Presence or Person existing somewhere in time or somewhere nearby - is not meaning that I am encountering in their “ FACE or APPEARANCE “
You can even be near a Person or a Presence and never, ever see their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “

Please realize that the Trinity translators so greatly deleted, changed, switched and added so many things in the translations in order to create a confusing web of a doctrinal, theory and theology into the storyline from the beginning to the end, instead of simply translating it for what it says.
I honestly believe that this is why it took the Roman Catholic Church nearly 500 years after Christ to produce a Bible into Latin / Italian. And then Roman Catholics waited nearly 2000 years after Christ to produce a translation into another language.
There is nowhere in scripture where God is called a person other than in reflecting the - ONE SINGLE ONLY - “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ of God. The translators attempted to create their ideas by changing many, many basic meaning of many of the passages and they Mix Match, jumble, twist, crossover and delete words in total INCONSISTENCY, in a deliberate, manipulative and molding, fanciful, creation format. Why pretend that the modern word " PERSON s " somehow applies to a developed trinity faith in Gods word - How does " PERSON " or PERSONS apply to the FATHER, SON, and SPIRIT. However, there are no plural FACES. The Bible does not mention a { FIRST FACE - SECOND FACE - and THIRD FACE )
Ezekiel 39:29 "I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD.[/font]

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Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #526

Post by onewithhim »

Wootah wrote: Sat May 06, 2017 5:50 pm [Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]

Christians would agree that in isolation bible passages can mean anything. In this case yes it's clear that Jesus modelled true worship to God.

Really it's just the whole sending an innocent man that Christians find immoral about JW theology. Would you send yourself amongst the wolves or your son?

Then of course how can a perfect man pay for sins against an infinite God? That logic issue never gets resolved.

Finally it goes deeper. Man's desire to beat God. Hercules bested the gods physically and the JW religion wants a perfect man to best God morally.

But yes you can find passages that support you.
If my son was a perfect, sinless man, and if he WANTED to go, and my standards called for a perfect sinless man to balance out the scales of justice (Adam being the first perfect man, who plunged all of his progeny into imperfection and death), yes I would send my son to balance those scales of justice, knowing that I would be able to bring him back to life. (Romans 5:16-19)

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Re:

Post #527

Post by 101G »

[Replying to Falling Light 101 in post #522]

GINOLJC, to all.
First, God is a "Person", just not Three. for another word for "PERSON", is Soul, which God have, Isaiah 1:14 (kjv).

and to address the topic, is the Person in John 1:3 the same Person in Isaiah 44:24 who MADE ALL THINGS? Yes, or NO. that would answer the topic question.

101G.

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Re: Re:

Post #528

Post by onewithhim »

101G wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:20 pm [Replying to Falling Light 101 in post #522]

GINOLJC, to all.
First, God is a "Person", just not Three. for another word for "PERSON", is Soul, which God have, Isaiah 1:14 (kjv).

and to address the topic, is the Person in John 1:3 the same Person in Isaiah 44:24 who MADE ALL THINGS? Yes, or NO. that would answer the topic question.

101G.
The answer is NO.

Jesus, the Word, made all things with his Father's power and approval. It can be said that the Father, Jehovah (YHWH), made all things THROUGH Jesus. (I Corinthians 8:6) Jehovah is the Source of all power and life. He gave power to create to Jesus.

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Re: Re:

Post #529

Post by 101G »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #529]
then you have two creators, and two makers. which is none biblical, so do you wish to try again?

101G

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Re: Re:

Post #530

Post by onewithhim »

101G wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:17 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #529]
then you have two creators, and two makers. which is none biblical, so do you wish to try again?

101G
No, I'm sorry you can't see what is being said. There is ONE Source of the power of creation---Jehovah, the Father. He GAVE His Son the ability and His approval to create. As I Corinthians 8:6 tells us---all things were made THROUGH Jesus. Jehovah did His creating by means of His Son, Jesus. So they both can be considered "creators," but only one is the Source of that creation ability.

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