JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

Overcomer
Guru
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:44 am
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Post #511

Post by Overcomer »

I have not read the preceding pages and the many responses because I don’t have a lot of time to spend here. So forgive me if someone has already ably replied to these verses and I am repeating what they said.

First of all, let’s define the Trinity. He is one God who exists in three persons. He is NOT three separate gods united as one as JWs like to erroneously define him. Put another way, God is one being with three individual consciousnesses. Because each member of the Trinity has his own consciousness, each relates to each other as individuals while still being ontologically one. Once a person understands this, that person can accept the Trinity without any qualms.

Therefore, Jesus can indeed pray to YHWH while still being God himself because, while being ontologically God, that is, one with God in essence, he has his own consciousness.

With that in mind, let's consider the rest of the statements in the OP:

onewithin wrote:
He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?
Yes, he was the Son of God. No argument there. As I said, Jesus has his own consciousness. Therefore, he can be God's son with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother and still be God.

And he did indeed call himself YHWH when he stated, “Before Abraham was, I AM� (John 8:58). I AM is a title YHWH used to describe himself (Ex. 3:14). Jesus used the same title to refer to himself, thereby stating clearly that he thought of himself as God. And we know that the Jews recognized this because they accused him of blasphemy. Blasphemy is defined as claiming to be God. And they picked up stones to stone him to death which was the punishment for blasphemy. So the Jews knew exactly what he was saying. They knew he was claiming to be God.

onewithin wrote:
He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?
Yes, he was anointed by YHWH and sent by YHWH. But these things do not deny the existence of the Trinity. They only point out what I said – that each person of the Trinity, while being one in essence, have individual consciousnesses. They also have individual roles to play. Jesus’ role was to come to earth as God Incarnate, die on the cross and rise from the dead to atone for the sins of humankind. He did that in a subordinate role as God the Son. But he was still God.

In fact, he HAD to be God to die for our sins. Only an unblemished human sacrifice would have been acceptable as it says in Heb. 10:4 (It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins). Jesus was the only sinless human being to live precisely because he WAS God as well as man.

onewithin wrote:
Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?
I don't have time to explain that in my own words so let me cut and paste someone else's:

Question: "What does it mean that ‘the Lord said to my Lord’?"

Answer: In Psalm 110:1, David says, “The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool’� (ESV). In Matthew 22:44, Jesus quotes this verse in a discussion with the Pharisees in order to prove that the Messiah is more than David’s son; He is David’s Lord.

The clause the LORD says to my Lord contains two different Hebrew words for “lord� in the original. The first word is Yahweh, the Hebrew covenant name for God. The second is Adonai, meaning “lord� or “master.� So, in Psalm 110:1, David writes this: “Yahweh says to my Adonai. . . .� To better understand Jesus’ use of Psalm 110:1, we’ll look at the identity of each “Lord� separately.

The first “Lord� in “the LORD says to my Lord� is the eternal God of the universe, the Great I AM who revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 3. This self-existent, omnipotent God speaks in Psalm 110 to someone else who is also David’s “Lord.�

The second “Lord� in “the LORD says to my Lord� is the Messiah, or the Christ. Psalm 110 describes this second “Lord� as follows:

� He sits at God’s right hand (verse 1)
� He will triumph over all His enemies and rule over them (verses 1–2)
â—� He will lead a glorious procession of troops (verse 3)
� He will be “a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek� (verse 4)
� He will have divine power to crush kings, judge nations, and slay the wicked (verses 5–6)
â—� He will find refreshment and be exalted (verse 7)

In Matthew 22:44, Jesus unmistakably identifies the second “Lord� of Psalm 110:1 as the Messiah, and the Pharisees all agree that, yes, David was speaking of the Messiah. When David wrote, “The LORD says to my Lord,� he distinctly said that the Messiah (or the Christ) was his lord and master—his Adonai.

A common title for the Messiah in Jesus’ day was “Son of David,� based on the fact that the Messiah would be the descendant of David who would inherit the throne and fulfill the Davidic Covenant (see 2 Samuel 7). Jesus capitalizes on the Jewish use of the title “Son of David� to drive home His point in Matthew 22. “While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, ‘What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?’ ‘The son of David,’ they replied. He said to them, ‘How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him “Lord�? For he says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.�’� If then David calls him “Lord,� how can he be his son?’� (Matthew 22:41–45).

Jesus’ reasoning is this: “Son of David� is your title for the Messiah, yet David himself calls Him “Lord.� The Messiah, then, must be much more than just a son—a physical descendant—of David. According to Psalm 110:1, this “Son of David� was alive during David’s time and was greater than David. All of this information is contained in the statement that “the LORD says to my Lord.� Jesus is David’s Lord; He is the Christ, the Jewish Messiah, and Psalm 110 is a promise of Jesus’ victory at His second coming.

Another important point that Jesus makes in Matthew 22 is that David wrote the psalm under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; David was “speaking by the Spirit,� Jesus says (verse 43). Clearly, Jesus taught the inspiration of Scripture. When David wrote, “The LORD says to my Lord,� he was recording exactly what God wanted him to write.

From: https://www.gotquestions.org/Lord-said-to-my-Lord.html

onewithin wrote:
I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.
Every article I have ever seen from a JW source has always defined the Trinity incorrectly. That means that all the arguments JWs put forth against the Trinity are nothing but strawman arguments. There is a link below which presents a brief and accurate description of the Trinity. If JWs want to argue against it using the correct definition, that's one thing. But to keep misrepresenting what Trinitarians believe does not make for an honest argument.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

And this link explains what we mean by an ontological Trinity:

https://www.gotquestions.org/ontological-Trinity.html

User avatar
Falling Light 101
Apprentice
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:16 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #512

Post by Falling Light 101 »

[font=Arial]Hello.

Sorry about the unwanted all bold fonts.

But I really agree with " Overcomer " Who brought up Mat 22:44 - in Gods word .

The saying of Yahshua " what If then David calls him “Lord,� how can he be his son?’�[/font] it shows that Yahoshua was born through the seed Of David and was the Son Of David - However Yahoshua was also saying that He was more than Just a son of man - But He was the LORD also. I, myself also - I do glorify that Yahoshua The Anointed who has manifested the image of The Fathers confidence, upholds all things by the word of his power and has by himself purged our sins, seated in the right as the Majesty in high.
Friends - Please consider ? my response to the FACT that - The Bible does not mention a { FIRST FACE - SECOND FACE - and THIRD FACE ) or FACES or PERSON Of God. But simply God is ONE in three manifestations, forms, or morphs or expressions. =

- Not Persons or Faces.

We see again, how the Trinitarian translators changed the very last few words of this verse here in Heb 1:3
The original manuscripts say that Yahoshua is seated in the right as The Majesty in high.

But the Trinitarian translators changed Heb 1:3 to say that { Jesus is sitting down on the right hand } - However the Greek word { UPON or ON } is not the Greek word { � IN “ }
The Greek word { UPON or ON } is the word G1909 ´ - epi / ep-ee' - = Meaning Over, upon, on, = of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.: above, after, against, among.

This Greek word { UPON or ON } is used 262 times in the New Testament and it always means the same exact meaning.

We see that The Original Manuscripts here in Heb 1:3 say that Yahoshua is seated { � IN “ } the right as The Majesty in high.

{ * Not “ ON “ the RIGHT HAND “ }

There is no Right Hand of God anywhere in the original manuscripts and I can prove this as well. - This is another Trinitarian addition that they have added -
“��� However - the RIGHT HAND of a spirit “��� does not exist in the actual scriptures.
But Yahoshua is � INSIDE “ The Right of the Majesty � INSIDE “ the high.
This Greek word G1722 � IN “ is the Greek word ε?ν en { IN } = Meaning ( in a place, in a time or in a state of ), “in�, at, as.

Again we see the Trinitarian translators trying to manipulate and render the text to indoctrinate a trinity teaching by changing the meaning of the original manuscripts.
But I do agree with You that "Jesus is the One True God" in the flesh. However I find no Trinitarian Roman Catholic teaching in the scriptures. Also we begin to notice how that the Trinitarian translators manipulated the Greek word “ FACE “ G4383 - π�ο´σωπον - proso¯pon / pros'-o-pon -= Meaning The visage; The front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; = (outward) appearance.

Also * Please notice what the Trinitarians did here in Heb_9:24.
Heb_9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself now to appear in the G3588 presenceG4383 of God for us:
Please notice the Greek word “ THE “ G3588 Here in Heb_9:24 the Greek says that Christ will appear or manifest as “ THE “ FACE OF GOD - - Not appear in the presence of God.
*Again the Trinitarians Act_3:19 Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT presence } G4383 of the Lord;
*Act_5:41 they departed from the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT presence } G4383 of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy
*2Co_10:1 the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT presence } G4383 is base among you,

* 2Co_2:10 I forgave it, for your sakes … in the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT person } G4383 of Christ;

The Greek word G4383 π�ο´σωπον - proso¯pon / pros'-o-pon -= Always means “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ and does not mean presence or person . This is a sad lie that Trinitarians have injected into their translation.

* In conclusion please here below in the next two verses below

In these next two verses, the Trinitarian translators completely removed and deleted this Greek word G4383 “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ because completely = it totally destroys their manipulations, as they attempted to change the true meaning of the word G4383 “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as they attempted to change the message of the original texts.

The word “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ is completely delete from the
Act_13:24 When JohnG2491 had first preachedG4296 beforeG4253 hisG846 comingG1529 G4383 the baptismG908 of repentanceG3341 to allG3956 theG3588 peopleG2992 of Israel.G2474

In Act_13:24 John preached of the coming “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Jesus. Why did the trinity translators leave it out.
Also..... 2Co_8:24 WhereforeG3767 shewG1731 ye toG1519 them,G846 andG2532 beforeG1519 G4383 theG3588 churches,G1577 theG3588 proofG1732 of yourG5216 love,G26 andG2532 of ourG2257 boastingG2746 on your behalf.G5228 G5216

In 2Co_8:24 there is the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the churches. Why did the trinity translators leave it out. This word is used 78 times in the Greek New Testament and it means “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ - not A Presence or A Person.

Here are just a few.

Mar_12:14 & Mat_22:16 neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the “ FACE “ personG4383 of men.
Luk_20:21 thou teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of any.
2Co_10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_6:16 they disfigure their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_6:17 wash thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_11:10 I send my messenger before thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ ,G4383
Mat_16:3 O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the sky;
Mat_17:2 his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 did shine as the sun
Mat_17:6 they fell on their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_18:10 the angels behold the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of my Father
Mat_26:39 And he went a little further and fell on his face,G4383 and prayed
Mat_26:67 Then they spit in his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mar_1:2 I send my messenger before thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mar_14:65 cover his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Luk_1:76 the prophet of the Highest shalt go before the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the Lord
Luk_2:31 before the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of all people
Luk_9:29 his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 was altered and his raiment was white
Luk_9:53 Jesus’s “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk_12:56 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the sky
1Co_13:12 then “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 to face:G4383
1Co_14:25 falling down on his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
2Co_3:7 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Moses
2Co_4:6 the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Jesus Christ.
2Co_5:12 ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 and not in heart.
2Co_11:20 if a man smite you on the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Jas_1:23 a man beholding his natural “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 in a glass
1Pe_3:12 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Rev_9:7 on their heads were as it were crowns and their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as the facesG4383 of men.
Rev_10:1 a rainbow was upon his head and his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as the sun
Rev_11:16 fell upon their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 and worshipped God,
Rev_22:4 And they shall see his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383

Also..... Another Presence or Person existing somewhere in time or somewhere nearby - is not meaning that I am encountering in their “ FACE or APPEARANCE “
You can even be near a Person or a Presence and never, ever see their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “
Please realize that the Trinity translators so greatly deleted, changed, switched and added so many things in the translations in order to create a confusing web of a doctrinal, theory and theology into the storyline from the beginning to the end, instead of simply translating it for what it says.
I honestly believe that this is why it took the Roman Catholic Church nearly 500 years after Christ to produce a Bible into Latin / Italian. And then Roman Catholics waited nearly 2000 years after Christ to produce a translation into another language.
There is nowhere in scripture where God is called a person other than in reflecting the - ONE SINGLE ONLY - “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ of God. The translators attempted to create their ideas by changing many, many basic meaning of many of the passages and they Mix Match, jumble, twist, cross over and delete words in total INCONSISTENCY in a deliberate, manipulative and molding fanciful creation format. Why pretend that the modern word " PERSON s " somehow applies to a developed trinity faith in Gods word - How does " PERSON " or PERSONS apply to the FATHER, SON and SPIRIT. However, there are no plural FACES. The Bible does not mention a { FIRST FACE - SECOND FACE - and THIRD FACE )
Ezekiel 39:29 "I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD.

God's Face is Literally manifested in Yahoshua and God is never called a person in the manuscripts in the modern way that we have developed the word PERSON. Yehoshua is the confidence of the Fathers Image and the Face of the Holy Spirit.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Post #513

Post by onewithhim »

There is nothing mysterious or hard-to-understand about God. He is quite clear in the Scriptures. There are not "three manifestations" of Him. To come up with that, I think a person has to do some intricate mental gymnastics.

The plain truth is that Jehovah is God and He is the only one. He does not have three manifestations, but is entirely complete as "Jehovah/ the Father/ God above all." He is not also the Son, and the Holy Spirit is simply Jehovah's expression of power.


"I am Jehovah, this is My name, and mine honour to another I give not, nor my praise to graven images." (Isaiah 42:8, Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible)


"And they know that Thou (Thy name is Jehovah---by Thyself) art the Most High over all the earth!" (Psalm 83:18, Young's)

User avatar
Falling Light 101
Apprentice
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:16 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #514

Post by Falling Light 101 »

There are not "three manifestations" of Him. ? ?

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Post #515

Post by onewithhim »

Falling Light 101 wrote: There are not "three manifestations" of Him. ? ?

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 
No, there are not three manifestations of God.

The Son said clearly and distinctly to the Father---"YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) He did not include himself in "God."

Your rendering of ITimothy 3:16 has been tampered with by people in centuries past. Scholars in more recent times have discerned that the original most certainly did not say "God" was manifest in the flesh. It is a bold corruption of the text. The following versions show that "God" was an insertion that someone who believed that Jesus should be God placed within the verse. It originally read:

"By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: HE who was revealed in the flesh..." (New American Standard Bible)

"Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:HE appeared in a body..." (New International Version[/u])

"Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, WHO was manifested in the flesh..." (New American Bible)

"HE was manifested in flesh..." (Revised English Bible)

"And who does not admit how profound is the divine truth of our religion?--it is HE who was 'manifest in the flesh'..." (James Moffatt Translation)

"And obviously great is the mystery of godliness:WHICH was manifested in the flesh..." (New Catholic Edition)

"We all want to treat with the greatest reverence that deep truth about THE ONE WHO appeared as a human..." (21st Century New Testament)



I could go on and on with versions that do not say that "God" was manifest in the flesh. The verse does not refer to "God" but to Jesus Christ. Nowhere does it say that God was manifest in the flesh.

Indeed, Darby includes this in a footnote: "It very likely should be read, 'HE WHO HAS, etc., but has been meddled with."

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

Post #516

Post by onewithhim »

Monta wrote: [Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]


"I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? "

Jesus is not but (risen) Jesus Christ is.
Would you please explain?

User avatar
Falling Light 101
Apprentice
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:16 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #517

Post by Falling Light 101 »

Hello.

Please do not forget that the One Step Theology of Roman Catholics, Trinitarians and also of Muslims does nor ALLOW them to agree on anything concerning the Bible.

Nor do they each individually agree with the Bible.

The FACT is - that Tit 1:3 says - - Tit 1:3  { THAT GOD } hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour. But -

And REMEMBER
that Yahoshua is LITERALLY Called " THE WORD OF GOD "

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 

[font=Arial]There is no doubt in the Bible that Yahoshua Himself was Manifested in the flesh. AS the literal " Word Of God. "

And 1Jn 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 

We know that Every other person also who is born is also MANIFESTED in the flesh. This is not the subject of the Verse.
The major topic of the Bible is that Yahoshua himself was manifested in flesh - as the WORD OF GOD - The Godliness of The God Himself. AS LITERALLY - GOD HIMSELF...........Yahoshua is Called - THE WORD OF GOD. That was MADE FLESH.

Here, Yahoshua is literally in HEAVEN in Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 

In fact - The Greek word " MANIFEST " is - G5319 φανε�ο�ω - phaneroō

One does not need to even need to add or even see the questionable word { He or God } in the 1 Timothy 3:16 verse ... to understand that Yahoshua Himself was MANIFESTED in FLESH.

His manifestation of the godliness of the Father was also the Image of the Fathers Confidence.

AS THE WORD OF GOD. The word Literally - IS GOD.
This is all throughout the Manuscripts - The same exact Greek word MANIFEST G5319 φανε�ο�ω - phaneroō

Joh_1:31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest G5319 φανε�ο�ω - to Israel.

G5319 φανε�ο�ω - phaneroō / fan-er-o'-o
Meaning to render, apparent To - appear, manifestly To declare, (make) manifest (forth), To shew (self).

1Jn 1:2  (For the life { OF GOD } was manifested φανε�ο�ω - phaneroō

and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested φανε�ο�ω - phaneroō unto us;)  Here Yahoshua is the MANIFESTATION of the WORD / GOD The Father - that existed WITH the Father from the beginning.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
2  The same was in the beginning with God. 
3  All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. 
4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 

To study more about the corrupted manuscripts please see the following websites.

https://electxrextheelectriclion.nfshost.com/
&

[/font]

101G
Apprentice
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:58 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #518

Post by 101G »

onewithhim wrote:
Falling Light 101 wrote: There are not "three manifestations" of Him. ? ?

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 
No, there are not three manifestations of God.

The Son said clearly and distinctly to the Father---"YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) He did not include himself in "God."
if I may join in on the conversation. the quote of John 17:3 is not quoted correctly, and in doing so misleading. John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent".

most people overlook the conjunction "AND" here in the verse. it seem like it's talking about two people. I don't believe so. if someone is using the scripture this way, then tell me how many person is this. James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

this is the same construct as John 17:3

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Post #519

Post by onewithhim »

Falling Light 101 wrote: Hello.

Please do not forget that the One Step Theology of Roman Catholics, Trinitarians and also of Muslims does nor ALLOW them to agree on anything concerning the Bible.

Nor do they each individually agree with the Bible.

The FACT is - that Tit 1:3 says - - Tit 1:3  { THAT GOD } hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour. But -

And REMEMBER
that Yahoshua is LITERALLY Called " THE WORD OF GOD "

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 

[font=Arial]There is no doubt in the Bible that Yahoshua Himself was Manifested in the flesh. AS the literal " Word Of God. "

And 1Jn 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 

We know that Every other person also who is born is also MANIFESTED in the flesh. This is not the subject of the Verse.
The major topic of the Bible is that Yahoshua himself was manifested in flesh - as the WORD OF GOD - The Godliness of The God Himself. AS LITERALLY - GOD HIMSELF...........Yahoshua is Called - THE WORD OF GOD. That was MADE FLESH.

Here, Yahoshua is literally in HEAVEN in Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 

In fact - The Greek word " MANIFEST " is - G5319 φανε�ο�ω - phaneroō

One does not need to even need to add or even see the questionable word { He or God } in the 1 Timothy 3:16 verse ... to understand that Yahoshua Himself was MANIFESTED in FLESH.

His manifestation of the godliness of the Father was also the Image of the Fathers Confidence.

AS THE WORD OF GOD. The word Literally - IS GOD.
This is all throughout the Manuscripts - The same exact Greek word MANIFEST G5319 φανε�ο�ω - phaneroō

Joh_1:31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest G5319 φανε�ο�ω - to Israel.

G5319 φανε�ο�ω - phaneroō / fan-er-o'-o
Meaning to render, apparent To - appear, manifestly To declare, (make) manifest (forth), To shew (self).

1Jn 1:2  (For the life { OF GOD } was manifested φανε�ο�ω - phaneroō

and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested φανε�ο�ω - phaneroō unto us;)  Here Yahoshua is the MANIFESTATION of the WORD / GOD The Father - that existed WITH the Father from the beginning.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
2  The same was in the beginning with God. 
3  All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. 
4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 

To study more about the corrupted manuscripts please see the following websites.

https://electxrextheelectriclion.nfshost.com/
&

[/font]
You make good points about Jesus becoming flesh (the Word OF God), but you add a lot when you say that Jesus "was God." That deduction does not follow what you said about the Word becoming flesh. Jesus being God is your own addition. You also continue to ignore what has been posted about John 1:1.

The Word was made flesh and dwelled among us. It doesn't say that God was made flesh. Jesus was also the IMAGE of God, not God Himself. You brought that out, but then you said that it shows that Jesus was God. The verses do not show that.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Post #520

Post by onewithhim »

101G wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
Falling Light 101 wrote: There are not "three manifestations" of Him. ? ?

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 
No, there are not three manifestations of God.

The Son said clearly and distinctly to the Father---"YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) He did not include himself in "God."
if I may join in on the conversation. the quote of John 17:3 is not quoted correctly, and in doing so misleading. John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent".

most people overlook the conjunction "AND" here in the verse. it seem like it's talking about two people. I don't believe so. if someone is using the scripture this way, then tell me how many person is this. James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

this is the same construct as John 17:3
It IS talking about two Persons. We would understand James 1:27 the same way except that won't stand up because we know that God and the Father are the same Person. By the same token, we know that God and Jesus are TWO different Persons because this is the case with hundreds of other verses that distinguish the two.

Jesus spoke of his Father and God as apart from himself many times, e.g.:

"I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God." (John 20:17, NASB)

There is no getting around that he and God were two different Persons. He was on Earth and his God was in heaven.


Paul wrote innumerable times about the TWO Persons (God and Jesus). Notice that he explicitly stated that Jesus was the SON OF God.

"God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." (I Corinthians 1:9, NASB)

Further:

"For us there is but one God, the Father." (I Corinthians 8:6)

Post Reply