onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?
To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.
Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.
It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.
Yes, he's talking about "the coming of the Lord" in these last days. He verifies the idea of "the sleep of the dead" as well, showing that before the Lord comes there will have been many who were still "asleep." They will be resurrected and "changed" when they are called by Jesus during the "last days" and ALL of the chosen ones will come with him in the final confrontation with the wicked elements of the world.
RESPONSE: I can list Jesus' claims for a return during the lifetime of those then alive if you like, but you should be able to locate them on your own. Jesus made it abundantly clear that he would return during his generation.
He was in error, but some fundamentalist can't accept this.
Thus
both Jesus and Paul were in error regarding a "God-breathed" claim about any second coming during the lives of many of those in Jesus' generation.
Matthew 16:28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�
1 Thessalonians 4 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that
we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord, Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another.
Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come.