What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

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What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

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Post by Checkpoint »

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #91

Post by eldios »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 86 by tam]

What happens after the 1000 year realm? Do the Buddists and ex-atheists all get to spend eternity with God in heaven? Do they stay on earth and move back an forth between the realms or will they be "condemned" to spend eternity apart from Jesus who will I presume (correct me if I'm wrong) return to making heaven his "home base"

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The millennium reign of Christ was completed in December of 2016 which consisted of God's servants preaching the gospel of God to all his chosen believers starting 2,000 years ago. Now we wait for the day of the Lord to end this generation.

Matthew 24
14: And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #92

Post by tam »

onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:The spirit of a man is what descends to the grave, sleeping, conscious of nothing... or the spirit of a man is what is received by Christ, resting (sleeping) under the altar, awaiting the first resurrection.
So the holy ones die, go to heaven but are still unconscious in heaven? How do they "cry out" from under the alter if they are unconscious (Rev 6:10)?

Because the Life (Christ) is in their presence. Same way that Christ could have preached to those in the world of the dead when He went there, and the dead could hear Him.
Christ did not preach to "those in the world of the dead."
He did. If He would preach to the imprisoned spirits of angels (spirit beings) in Tartarus, then why would He not also preach to the imprisoned spirits of MAN in sheol, when He descended? Out of love, compassion, and mercy for such ones?

And Sheol is not simply a dug out grave or tomb for the body of the deceased to be buried and decay. The world of the dead consists of lower regions as well (deepest darkeness; tartarus; the abyss; the pit).

For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. Deuteronomy 32:22

I have explained what I Peter 3:18,19 means, quite a few times before, but you don't give that any credence.
Just because you have explained what you believe it means, does not mean that your explanation is true, or that I can agree.
The Scripture says: "he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison," and continues on: "who were once disobedient...in the days of Noah."(NASB) It does not say that he went "to the world of the dead." How do you arrive at that idea?
Christ descended to the grave (the world of the dead). That comes from other verses. I was not referring to this passage in Peter with regard to Him descending to the world of the dead. He did not simply cease to exist. He went to the world of the dead. As the spirit of all men do (except those in Christ, who go 'under the altar')

He didn't go to the "world of the dead."


He did, as all do (except those who die in Him, after that time).
He went to speak to spirits---spirit persons---who had disobeyed in Noah's day.


He did this as well.
Who were the "spirits" that disobeyed in Noah's day? Genesis 6:2 tells us that it was a certain group of ANGELS ("sons of God") that came down and took human wives for themselves. Peter elaborates on this fact: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah...[etc]." (2 Peter 2:4,5, KJV)
Yes, He did this as well.
And Jude further comments: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, under darkness, unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6, KJV)
Yes.
So....it was the disobedient ANGELS that Jesus visited after his resurrection.


In the world of the dead, during His time there.
It wasn't any dead people.


The spirits of man are in the world of the dead as well, and as questioned at the start, why would He have preached to the imprisoned spirits of rebellious angels, but not the imprisoned spirits of man - many of whom were misled and who were made subject to death because of a decision that the first man (adam) made for them?


You are misconstruing what Peter said about Jesus going to speak to the spirits in prison. They were DEMONS in "Tartarus"---a darkened spiritual state.


I am not. I was not referring to Peter's words about those spirits.
Your Lord doesn't make these things clear to you?
He does.

Not that there are not (many) things that I do not yet know or understand, of course. Indeed I know and see nothing except what He teaches and/or opens my eyes to see. But there have been many things I have not understood in the past, that He has explained to me since then. So I have no doubt that those things I still have questions on, and do not understand, will be made known to me when a) I am able to hear and understand; and b) in HIS time and according to HIS wisdom.

But...that's right...if what he says conflicts with the scripture you go with what he says, right?
I would believe my Lord over something that is written, since HE is the Truth and the Word of God. And God said to listen to His Son. Plus, my Lord is not subject to the lying pen of the scribes; but the written word IS so subject.


But in this case, He has not told me anything that is in conflict with the scriptures, nor even anything that is against love. There is no scripture that says He did not preach to those spirits (of men) in Sheol when He went there.


I mean... He has the keys to death and hades. He has the keys to the abyss. He preached to those spirits (of angels) imprisoned in Tartarus, who rebelled in the days of Noah. He is certainly capable of preaching to the spirits of man imprisoned in Sheol as well. Why would He not have done so, out of love and mercy and compassion, while there?


Peace again to you owh, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #93

Post by marco »

onewithhim wrote:
So....it was the disobedient ANGELS that Jesus visited after his resurrection. It wasn't any dead people. You are misconstruing what Peter said about Jesus going to speak to the spirits in prison. They were DEMONS in "Tartarus"---a darkened spiritual state. Your Lord doesn't make these things clear to you? But...that's right...if what he says conflicts with the scripture you go with what he says, right?
The difference between your two interpretations is that Tam's makes some sense. Why would Jesus want to visit DEMONS? His visit would more properly seem to be an act of kindness, an announcement that they are released, by his redemption, from their captive chains. Your view does not stand up to scrutiny, so it would seem you are the one who has misconstrued.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #94

Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Can you explain what you believe a resurrection to be? (I see I have been under the misconception its when someone dies and comes back to life (ie is no longer dead).
It's not a misconception, just a preoccupation with a literal meaning of the word. It comes from the Latin: resurgere, to rise again and yes, it is applied to rising from the dead. Then again, one can rise again in a figurative way and one may see Christ's Resurrection in a figurative way.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #95

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: I answered why He is in the spiritual realm. (not moving back and forth, though He can do so).
tam wrote:To perhaps help you (or anyone reading) to be able to get a sense of God being 'everywhere' (although those are not my words), and God also being able to come down to earth
So God comes "down to earth" but also stays in heaven in the spiritual realm, is that about right?
tam wrote:I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.


So the Holy City comes down out of heaven but God isn't in it?!

Are you saying that Jesus rules the earth from earth but God does not rule at all (because he (God) does not move out of the spirit realm? Or does God rule from heaven? When Jesus was on earth he expressed his desire to be with his Father, at his side. According to you he will only be able to be there on a part time basis (travelling back and forth between the two realms). If God rules from the spirit realm why cannot Jesus do the same?

If God "comes down to earth" in some other sense all the while still actually being in heaven in the spirit realm, could this not be a clue as to what Jesus does? ie "come down to earth" but not actually leave the spirit realm... just like you say God does?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #96

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 95 by JehovahsWitness]
So the Holy City comes down out of heaven but God isn't in it?!

I think I may understand some of your confusion here.


The Holy City is a city made of PEOPLE.

God is in the Holy City (the New Jerusalem, the Bride, which is the city made of PEOPLE) by means of holy spirit. Just as Christ is in God, and God is in Christ; and Christ is in us (we who have been given holy spirit, the water of life) and we are in Christ (in His Body).

So of course God is in New Jerusalem when she comes down out of heaven, by means of holy spirit. But that does not mean that He has come down in person.


If God rules from the spirit realm why cannot Jesus do the same?
Are you sure you are not confusing what someone CAN do with what someone WILL do?



If God "comes down to earth" in some other sense all the while still actually being in heaven in the spirit realm, could this not be a clue as to what Jesus does? ie "come down to earth" but not actually leave the spirit realm...
No.

For example:

The New Jerusalem comes down OUT OF heaven. Revelation 21:2

And Revelation 3:12 states the same thing:

“‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.


You (and other from your religion that I have spoken to on this forum) always seem to overlook the statement that the New Jerusalem comes OUT OF heaven.

You pay attention to the 'come down', but overlook the "out of"...



I do not have to explain to you that the Bride and Christ are together in person at this time... as I believe you also understand that she follows the lamb wherever He goes (hence, if she is coming down out of heaven, it is because He is coming down out of heaven.). Plus, we who are in Christ are already one with Him by means of holy spirit NOW. But we are waiting for Christ to come again.

No, Christ comes literally - with every eye seeing Him - first gathering us all up to Him to be married (those of us who have died and those of us who are still alive at His coming). Then the New Jerusalem (the Bride) comes down out of heaven, and the Kingdom is established upon the earth.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #97

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 96 by tam]

But isn't new Jerusalem the bride? Jesus isn't his bride he is married to her. How do you know she doesn't come down "OUT OF" heaven while Jesus is with her in the same way God is with her?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #98

Post by tam »

Answered in the post. Perhaps you need to re-read it?

Peace again,
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tammy

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Post #99

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 98 by tam]

No I don't think its was: you did mention that Jesus and his bride are "together" (I take that to mean united), but Jesus is not only "together" with his Father, they are spoken of as being "one". If Jesus is together with his father while at the same time coming down OUT OF heaven, while his Father stays in heaven with the angels, what makes you believe that Jesus will not be "together" which his bride in the future in the same sense?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #100

Post by tam »

Let me ask you a question (or two), JW.

Do you think that the Bride (the New Jerusalem) reigns as kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years?

Where do you think they are ruling with Him?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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