What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

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What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #111

Post by tam »

onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote: [Replying to post 95 by JehovahsWitness]
So the Holy City comes down out of heaven but God isn't in it?!

I think I may understand some of your confusion here.


The Holy City is a city made of PEOPLE.

God is in the Holy City (the New Jerusalem, the Bride, which is the city made of PEOPLE) by means of holy spirit. Just as Christ is in God, and God is in Christ; and Christ is in us (we who have been given holy spirit, the water of life) and we are in Christ (in His Body).

So of course God is in New Jerusalem when she comes down out of heaven, by means of holy spirit. But that does not mean that He has come down in person.


If God rules from the spirit realm why cannot Jesus do the same?
Are you sure you are not confusing what someone CAN do with what someone WILL do?



If God "comes down to earth" in some other sense all the while still actually being in heaven in the spirit realm, could this not be a clue as to what Jesus does? ie "come down to earth" but not actually leave the spirit realm...
No.

For example:

The New Jerusalem comes down OUT OF heaven. Revelation 21:2

And Revelation 3:12 states the same thing:

“‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.


You (and other from your religion that I have spoken to on this forum) always seem to overlook the statement that the New Jerusalem comes OUT OF heaven.

You pay attention to the 'come down', but overlook the "out of"...



I do not have to explain to you that the Bride and Christ are together in person at this time... as I believe you also understand that she follows the lamb wherever He goes (hence, if she is coming down out of heaven, it is because He is coming down out of heaven.). Plus, we who are in Christ are already one with Him by means of holy spirit NOW. But we are waiting for Christ to come again.

No, Christ comes literally - with every eye seeing Him - first gathering us all up to Him to be married (those of us who have died and those of us who are still alive at His coming). Then the New Jerusalem (the Bride) comes down out of heaven, and the Kingdom is established upon the earth.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
The New Jerusalem's INFLUENCE comes down out of heaven!
The bold is an addition to the text; an interpretation that men have given to the text.

It is not what the text states. It is not what John saw in His vision.


You take so many things literally in Revelation when they could not be literal. Revelation describes the New Jerusalem as having twelve gates, walls with foundation stones, its length and breadth equal, as a perfect cube; the foundations consisted of precious stones, and the 12 gates had twelve pearls. So you say that New Jerusalem is made up of PEOPLE, which is correct. But why do you take Rev.21:2,3 literally when it says that the holy city and God are "coming down" out of heaven, when Rev.21:11-21 could not reasonably be considered literal? Are the people that the city is made up of actually bedecked with precious stones and pearls on their "foundations" and "gates"? How do you get around the fact that the city is described in much detail and yet is made up of PEOPLE? So we have to consider that most of that chapter is SYMBOLIC, and the idea that God and New Jerusalem "come down" out of heaven is also SYMBOLIC. If it is not, then thousands of people are going to come down with foundation stones and gates and walls of precious stones on their persons!
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd Rev 7:17

Here, Christ is described as a lamb (and in various other places He is also written as being slain, having seven horns and seven eyes)... but that does not mean that He does not take literal actions as that Shepherd - guiding, protecting, leading, teaching, calling.


My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Here, those who belong to Christ are described as sheep. That is symbolic. But the actions (listening to His voice, following Him, being known by Him) are literal.

The symbolic description of someone or something does not mean that the actions being taken are symbolic.

So while the New Jerusalem can be described in a symbolic way, in no way does this mean that she does not come down OUT OF heaven.

She, herself.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #112

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote: [Replying to post 95 by JehovahsWitness]
So the Holy City comes down out of heaven but God isn't in it?!

I think I may understand some of your confusion here.


The Holy City is a city made of PEOPLE.

God is in the Holy City (the New Jerusalem, the Bride, which is the city made of PEOPLE) by means of holy spirit. Just as Christ is in God, and God is in Christ; and Christ is in us (we who have been given holy spirit, the water of life) and we are in Christ (in His Body).

So of course God is in New Jerusalem when she comes down out of heaven, by means of holy spirit. But that does not mean that He has come down in person.


If God rules from the spirit realm why cannot Jesus do the same?
Are you sure you are not confusing what someone CAN do with what someone WILL do?



If God "comes down to earth" in some other sense all the while still actually being in heaven in the spirit realm, could this not be a clue as to what Jesus does? ie "come down to earth" but not actually leave the spirit realm...
No.

For example:

The New Jerusalem comes down OUT OF heaven. Revelation 21:2

And Revelation 3:12 states the same thing:

“‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.


You (and other from your religion that I have spoken to on this forum) always seem to overlook the statement that the New Jerusalem comes OUT OF heaven.

You pay attention to the 'come down', but overlook the "out of"...



I do not have to explain to you that the Bride and Christ are together in person at this time... as I believe you also understand that she follows the lamb wherever He goes (hence, if she is coming down out of heaven, it is because He is coming down out of heaven.). Plus, we who are in Christ are already one with Him by means of holy spirit NOW. But we are waiting for Christ to come again.

No, Christ comes literally - with every eye seeing Him - first gathering us all up to Him to be married (those of us who have died and those of us who are still alive at His coming). Then the New Jerusalem (the Bride) comes down out of heaven, and the Kingdom is established upon the earth.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
The New Jerusalem's INFLUENCE comes down out of heaven!
The bold is an addition to the text; an interpretation that men have given to the text.

It is not what the text states. It is not what John saw in His vision.


You take so many things literally in Revelation when they could not be literal. Revelation describes the New Jerusalem as having twelve gates, walls with foundation stones, its length and breadth equal, as a perfect cube; the foundations consisted of precious stones, and the 12 gates had twelve pearls. So you say that New Jerusalem is made up of PEOPLE, which is correct. But why do you take Rev.21:2,3 literally when it says that the holy city and God are "coming down" out of heaven, when Rev.21:11-21 could not reasonably be considered literal? Are the people that the city is made up of actually bedecked with precious stones and pearls on their "foundations" and "gates"? How do you get around the fact that the city is described in much detail and yet is made up of PEOPLE? So we have to consider that most of that chapter is SYMBOLIC, and the idea that God and New Jerusalem "come down" out of heaven is also SYMBOLIC. If it is not, then thousands of people are going to come down with foundation stones and gates and walls of precious stones on their persons!
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd Rev 7:17

Here, Christ is described as a lamb (and in various other places He is also written as being slain, having seven horns and seven eyes)... but that does not mean that He does not take literal actions as that Shepherd - guiding, protecting, leading, teaching, calling.


My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Here, those who belong to Christ are described as sheep. That is symbolic. But the actions (listening to His voice, following Him, being known by Him) are literal.

The symbolic description of someone or something does not mean that the actions being taken are symbolic.

So while the New Jerusalem can be described in a symbolic way, in no way does this mean that she does not come down OUT OF heaven.

She, herself.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
The actions being taken by God and Christ and New Jerusalem are not symbolic, because they want us to know that action will take place.....God's Kingdom will rule, by way of Christ and his co-rulers. But everything else that is pictured is metaphorical, great poetic license. The New Jerusalem is a huge cube that would extend many miles out into space, were it literal. None of that is literal. Just as it is not literal that the city COMES DOWN out of heaven. As I said before, it is the INFLUENCE of Christ and his Bride that "comes down" from heaven. They don't need to be actually on the earth to do their ruling. It is ridiculous to insist that Jesus, God and the co-rulers must be ON the earth to rule.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #113

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 112 by onewithhim]

I'm pretty sure that everything you said is repetition from your previous post. Therefore, there is nothing new to address, and so I will let my previous response(s) stand.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #114

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: [Replying to post 112 by onewithhim]

I'm pretty sure that everything you said is repetition from your previous post. Therefore, there is nothing new to address, and so I will let my previous response(s) stand.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Fine. And I will let mine stand as well.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #115

Post by tam »

Peace to you!


I do have to respond to something that was said in reference to me, however:

[Replying to post 108 by onewithhim]
She says that people who have died are CONSCIOUS in Sheol or "under the altar" in heaven.

"She" says no such thing.

"She" has said on numerous occasions that the dead are conscious of nothing. The spirit of a person (the man we are on the inside; our personality, our emotions; etc) sleeps in death, but does not cease to exist.

Hence, my Lord describes them as sleeping, as having fallen asleep.

The spirit of a person; the man we truly are on the 'inside' continues to exist, but is sleeping. Either in sheol (the world of the dead) ... OR ... "under the altar" (where Stephen's spirit went when he asked his Lord to receive his spirit). The spirit of a person is sleeping; conscious of nothing.


Except in the presence of the Life (Christ - who is the SOURCE of life). At which time the spirit might awaken somewhat, briefly, so as to hear Him speak; and then return to sleep.


**

Sheol is the world of the dead, not a physical grave/tomb in the literal ground. I even quoted earlier (post 92) the description of a lowest part of Sheol.

For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. Deuteronomy 32:22

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 8482&t=KJV


**


The NWT renders Sheol at Deuteronomy 32:22 as Grave. I don't think you realize it, but your translators are doing the same thing that others have done with regard to the word, 'hell': translating Sheol according to what they think Sheol IS.

The following is the explanation of the NWT for rendering Sheol as Grave:

Glossary Term
Grave.
When lowercased, referring to an individual grave; when capitalized, the common grave of mankind, equivalent to the Hebrew “Sheol� and the Greek “Hades.�
Just a quick note:

There is no upper case and lower case in the original text. The translators may just explaining how they do their own personal translating, but it should be noted that they did not make their decision to capitalize "Grave" or not based upon the original text; they made their decision based upon their personal interpretation of what Sheol IS.


Because there is an entirely different word that is used to reference a physical grave/tomb.

qĕbuwrah

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 6900&t=KJV

So it is not Sheol that is being rendered as Grave (when capitalized) and grave (when not capitalized).

Continuing their explanation:
It is described in the Bible as a symbolic place or condition wherein all activity and consciousness cease.​—Ge 47:30; Ec 9:10; Ac 2:31.
Please list the verses in the Bible that describe Sheol as a symbolic place or condition.

Because the verses listed as support of their explanation do NO SUCH THING. But one would first have to LOOK UP those verses to see that none of them support that idea.


For example:

Genesis 47:30

This does not use the word Sheol at all, and so is making no reference at all to Sheol. Genesis 47:30 uses the word qĕbuwrah and is referencing a physical grave/tomb.

From the NWT:

When I die,* you must carry me out of Egypt and bury me in the grave (qĕbuwrah) of my forefathers.�

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gen ... conc_47030


QÄ•buwrah is the word used for a physical grave (and there can be more than one person in that grave - as many were entombed in caves, together, such as Abraham and Sarah; indeed, Jacob is asking to be buried in the grave of his forefathers).


Ec 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave,*+ where you are going.


Grave has been rendered from the word Sheol, here.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/ecc ... onc_668010

BUT there is nothing in this verse to support the claim that this is a symbolic place or condition.


Indeed, in Sheol, the world of the dead, there is no work nor planning, etc... because those IN Sheol are conscious of nothing. Note also that Sheol is described in this verse as "where 'you' are going.

A place.



Ac 2:31

he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave* nor did his flesh see corruption. - NWT


Grave is again rendered from Hades (the greek equivalent of Sheol).

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/act ... nc_1020031

But once again NOTHING in the passage supports the idea that Hades is a symbolic place or condition.


Indeed, Christ was not forsaken in Sheol, the world of the dead.




Peace to you all, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #116

Post by tam »

Checkpoint... I also apologize for my part in the many pages of derailment from the OP. I did try to clarify my very first response to the OP, as you asked, but just in case that post was missed or unclear, I will try again:
Checkpoint wrote: The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

13 and 14.

Verse 13 says not to worry about those who have fallen asleep.

Verse 14 makes clear that these are the ones who are being referred to:

God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in [Jesus].


Verse 15 and 17 are speaking about those who are still alive at the second coming of Christ.

Paul speaks about them (those who are still alive at the second coming) elsewhere as well:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1Corinthians 15:51, 52

This is what Paul is describing in Thessalonians (at the last trumpet, the trumpet call of God). The dead (those who have fallen asleep) will be raised imperishable, and we (who are still alive) will be caught up and changed.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #117

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 115 by tam]

No....the spirit "returns to the true God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7) It doesn't hang around in Sheol or under an altar in heaven. It is God's active force that keeps the person alive. When the person dies, that life-giving power is gone....back to the originator of that life-giving force. Even as an electric current can be used to accomplish many things, by the same token God's spirit is used to do a wide variety of things, including giving people and animals the breath of life and maintaining it. That is the "spirit" that humans have.

BTW, we know what Sheol is, and it IS the grave. "The lowest part of Sheol" is merely poetic license, of which there is plenty throughout the Scriptures. Sheol has a "lowest part" just like rivers "clap their hands" and mountains "sing together for joy." (Psalm 98:8, NASB) Do you now understand?

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #118

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 17 by Checkpoint]
What does he mean by "bring", then?

There are at least three possibilities that have been claimed.

The first is that they will be taken to heaven.

The second is they will be brought from heaven, having been waiting there in their "intermediate" life between death and resurrection. This is a common religious view.

The third reading is that they will be brought back to life in resurrection as Christ had been.
There has been plenty of debate on this thread on related matters that posters have considered to be vital aspects.

However, the consensus seems to be that either option one or option two is what the phrase "bring with him" refers to.

I beg to differ and elect to go with option three,which is that those words refer directly to resurrection itself, the action and the fact, not anything related to it.

A future post will explain why I take this position.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #119

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #120

Post by Revelations won »

What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

The JW private interpretation in the following quote is amusing:

“WHY DID JESUS SPEAK OF DEATH AS SLEEP?

Because A Sleeping Person is inactive.
During deep sleep, there is no consciousness. Of surroundings or of the passing of time. There is no pain or suffering. Similarly, in death there is no activity or consciousness. But the comparison goes further. With sleep, one expects to wake up. And that is exactly the hope that the Bible offers the dead.”

1 Peter3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

It would appear that the spirits of those who died in the flood in the days of Noah must have been keenly alive in the spirit when Christ in his spirit body preached repentance to them after he was dead.

The scriptures clearly are in opposition to the private JW interpretation quoted above.

Best regards,
RW

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