What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

[Checkpoint]

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

[JehovahsWitness]

So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.


The death of Christ, became the means by which God could legitimately raise other individuals to heavenly life. God will "bring with him [Jesus]" other people to heaven. Although Paul is speaking specifically of first century companions of the Thesselonians that have died, by extention his statement applies to ALL spirit anointed Christians with a hope of heavenly life.


we [all spirit anointed Christians] who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them

Here Paul is referring to the final gathering of Jesus spirit anointed followers to heaven. When Paul speaks of "we"* here (verse 14) he is refering to "we" as a group of spirit anointed, born again Christians" and not simply restricted to the recipients of Paul's first century letter. Paul is explaining that the spirit anointed Christians alive during what the bible calls the "last day" or the period when Jesus goes into action as king of the Messianic Kingdom** (verse 16) will at that moment be raised to heaven.

*"we" who remain: It is not unusual to use the word "we" to refer to an entire group that encompasses members past, present and future. For example an American soldier might be heard to say "If we die on the battle field of Iraq today, it will be for the values we fought for so long ago when we fought against British colonialism. And we will still be here to defend freedom in centuries to come". This does not mean the soldier of the 21st century was alive during in the 16th century, nor that he believes he personally or his listeners expect be alive to fight in centuries to come. He is refering to "we" as a group of combattants past present and future. In a similar way Paul uses "we" to refer to all spirit anointed Christians.

... will not precede those who have fallen asleep

Paul is saying that those that die before the "last day" as Martha called it, did not go to heaven straight away but simply remained dead ("asleep" ie, unconsciouse in death), "awaiting" the moment when all spirit anointed Christians that have died would be called to heaven at the same time..

** Jehovah's Witnesses believe this began in early October 1914



Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 214#752214

FURTHER READING
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/110 ... =1:0-6:184

[polonius]

JW posted:

QUESTION: Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?

No. It is important to note that in the above discussion Paul, addressing the topic of the future resurrection, is using a collective "we" to refer to ALL anointed spirit begotten Christians AS A GROUP and NOT to those exclusively living in the first century; this is not at all unusual and is fairly common in the Christian Greek scriptures.

RESPONSE: Let's go by the plain meaning of words not what we want something to say.

“We who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord�

Definition of “we� -used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people considered together.

Definition of “still�- .up to and including the present or the time mentioned

Similar to:

Matthew 16:28New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

Let’s not pretend it means other than what it clearly says to support someone’s belief system!

[onewithhim]

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

Yes, he's talking about "the coming of the Lord" in these last days. He verifies the idea of "the sleep of the dead" as well, showing that before the Lord comes there will have been many who were still "asleep." They will be resurrected and "changed" when they are called by Jesus during the "last days" and ALL of the chosen ones will come with him in the final confrontation with the wicked elements of the world.

[onewithhim]

JW posted:

QUESTION: Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?

No. It is important to note that in the above discussion Paul, addressing the topic of the future resurrection, is using a collective "we" to refer to ALL anointed spirit begotten Christians AS A GROUP and NOT to those exclusively living in the first century; this is not at all unusual and is fairly common in the Christian Greek scriptures.

RESPONSE: Let's go by the plain meaning of words not what we want something to say.

“We who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord�

Definition of “we� -used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people considered together.

Definition of “still�- .up to and including the present or the time mentioned

Similar to:

Matthew 16:28New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

Let’s not pretend it means other than what it clearly says to support someone’s belief system!

JW explained the "we" superbly. If you want to spurn truth, it is your prerogative. Sometimes it is fruitless to keep arguing with someone who seemingly doesn't want to understand the other person's point of view. Her explanation cannot be dismantled. Did you bother to read it?

The Transfiguration has been explained also.....that that event fulfilled what he said about "some standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." He began to GLOW BRILLIANTLY. That represented the time when he would come in Kingdom power, in the last days. Three of the Apostles saw that and were encouraged.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 4 by onewithhim]

ALL of the chosen ones will come with him in the final confrontation with the wicked elements of the world.

Am I correct in reading this as being your understanding of te meaning intended in Paul's phrase "will bring with him"?

Please clarify what event you specifically referred to by your words "will come with".

[polonius]

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

Yes, he's talking about "the coming of the Lord" in these last days. He verifies the idea of "the sleep of the dead" as well, showing that before the Lord comes there will have been many who were still "asleep." They will be resurrected and "changed" when they are called by Jesus during the "last days" and ALL of the chosen ones will come with him in the final confrontation with the wicked elements of the world.

RESPONSE: I can list Jesus' claims for a return during the lifetime of those then alive if you like, but you should be able to locate them on your own. Jesus made it abundantly clear that he would return during his generation.

He was in error, but some fundamentalist can't accept this.

Thus both Jesus and Paul were in error regarding a "God-breathed" claim about any second coming during the lives of many of those in Jesus' generation.

Matthew 16:28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

1 Thessalonians 4 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord, Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

God will "bring with him [Jesus]" other people to heaven.

Correct me if I got the wrong impression, but you seem to be saying the "will bring" of verse 14 refers to Christ taking them with him to heaven after they meet, having been resurrected.

Yes or no?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 7 by polonius.advice]

RESPONSE: I can list Jesus' claims for a return during the lifetime of those then alive if you like, but you should be able to locate them on your own. Jesus made it abundantly clear that he would return during his generation.

He was in error, but some fundamentalist can't accept this.

Thus both Jesus and Paul were in error regarding a "God-breathed" claim about any second coming during the lives of many of those in Jesus' generation.

What you said may or may not be true. Opinions vary.

However, it is not what this thread is about.

The op clearly states the subject and its parameters.

Your views have already been debated on other threads, or you could start a new one on the issues you have shared.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

God will "bring with him [Jesus]" other people to heaven.

Correct me if I got the wrong impression, but you seem to be saying the "will bring" of verse 14 refers to Christ taking them with him to heaven after they meet, having been resurrected.

Yes or no?

Well the verse says it's God that will "bring" Christ (him) but yes, other people will also be brought to heaven "with" him (Christ).

after they meet? I don't know what "after they meet" means. I don't know who the "they" in your question refers to or what meeting you are asking about or what event you are saying this meeting will be "after", so I cannot address this part of your question.

As I said, we believe that "others" ( those that "die in christ" that God will "bring with him (Christ)" will be raised to heave. The whole point of Paul's letter (apart from to comfort the grieving of course) is to explain that all the anointed that have died will arrive in heaven at the same time. ( see my first post above)

having been resurrected the "bringing them to him" *is* the resurrection, so again I don't quite understand what you are asking?