What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

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What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

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Post #101

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Let me ask you a question (or two), JW.

Do you think that the Bride (the New Jerusalem) reigns as kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years?

Where do you think they are ruling with Him?

The bible is my answer

REVELATION 3:21
To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
So where is God's throne?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #102

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 101 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm not going to answer a question that I asked you (unless of course you are unwilling or unable to answer). But if you are able, then why wouldn't you just answer, rather than say 'the bible is my answer'? Especially considering that there are all manner of interpretations of men and religion, as regarding what the bible 'says'.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #103

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 102 by tam]

I always like to answer scriptures with scripture, that way the bible speaks and not personal opinion. The bible *is* my answer: isn't the scripture plain enough?

REVELATION 3:21
To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
You asked me where they will rule and the scipture says they will rule "with Jesus".

Where will Jesus be? that be "with the Father" on his throne?

Where is the Father?
tam wrote: He [The Father] is in the spiritual realm.


What part of your question has not been answered?
tam wrote:Where do you think they are ruling with Him?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #104

Post by tam »

Peace to you JW!
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 102 by tam]

I always like to answer scriptures with scripture, that way the bible speaks and not personal opinion.


In the first three pages of just this thread, you have no problem explaining your position in addition to OR without quoting verses from the bible at all.

The bible *is* my answer: isn't the scripture plain enough?
If scripture was plain enough on this forum to answer only with them, then why would any of us use any words other than quoting the bible? If the scripture was plain enough, then why do religions (such as your own) need to produce extra-biblical tracts and books in order to explain what they believe the scriptures mean?


REVELATION 3:21
To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
You asked me where they will rule and the scipture says they will rule "with Jesus".

Where will Jesus be? that be "with the Father" on his throne?

Where is the Father?
tam wrote: He [The Father] is in the spiritual realm.
So you will use some of MY words on where the Father is, to state in a roundabout way that you believe Christ (and the Bride) will rule from the spiritual realm, but you couldn't simply state that answer for yourself?


Why the prevarication? Unless perhaps you realized that the answers to those questions I asked you would reveal that what I have shared IS scriptural and follows more logically even according to things that you believe, despite the WTS teaching something else?

Because you asked:
But isn't new Jerusalem the bride? Jesus isn't his bride he is married to her. How do you know she doesn't come down "OUT OF" heaven while Jesus is with her in the same way God is with her?... JW

Why ask this question when you already accept that the New Jerusalem rules with Christ, wherever Christ may be? This is why I used New Jerusalem as an example to begin with.

(***And if Christ were only going to be with His Bride in the way that you seem to be trying to suggest (via the spirit - whatever that means to you - but not in person) then I would remind you that Christ is with His Bride in that way right NOW, and has been with her in that way since the very first outpouring by Him of holy spirit, almost two thousand years ago. Yet we are talking about a future coming; the time that Paul is speaking about in the very verse under question.)


You also asked this question:
If God "comes down to earth" in some other sense all the while still actually being in heaven in the spirit realm, could this not be a clue as to what Jesus does? ie "come down to earth" but not actually leave the spirit realm...
Hence, I responded no, and followed that up with the scripture about New Jerusalem coming down OUT OF heaven (coming down OUT OF the spiritual realm).***



**


So we both accept that the Bride reigns with Christ (in the same place as). We can both read that the Bride (the New Jerusalem) comes down OUT OF heaven. Scripture also states that she reigns as kings and priests upon the earth with Christ. I realize that the WTS likes to translate that as 'over' the earth; but 'upon' the earth is more in keeping with the New Jerusalem coming down OUT OF heaven, among other things, and also with the words that "the meek shall inherit the earth (A - who is meeker than Christ? Meek before God. And b - would not the Bride be listed among the meek - she who obeys the commands of Christ and follows Him wherever He goes; listening to His voice?)


Christ has been given all authority in heaven AND on earth.



Peace again to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #105

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 104 by tam]

So how would you explain the scripture?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #106

Post by onewithhim »

eldios wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 86 by tam]

What happens after the 1000 year realm? Do the Buddists and ex-atheists all get to spend eternity with God in heaven? Do they stay on earth and move back an forth between the realms or will they be "condemned" to spend eternity apart from Jesus who will I presume (correct me if I'm wrong) return to making heaven his "home base"

JW
The millennium reign of Christ was completed in December of 2016 which consisted of God's servants preaching the gospel of God to all his chosen believers starting 2,000 years ago. Now we wait for the day of the Lord to end this generation.

Matthew 24
14: And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.
Really? If Christ already had his Millennial Reign, why are there still dead people in their graves, and suffering and death still run rampage, and the Devil is still free to do his dirty work? The Devil was to have been ABYSSED for a thousand years. That didn't happen, did it?

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #107

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:The spirit of a man is what descends to the grave, sleeping, conscious of nothing... or the spirit of a man is what is received by Christ, resting (sleeping) under the altar, awaiting the first resurrection.
So the holy ones die, go to heaven but are still unconscious in heaven? How do they "cry out" from under the alter if they are unconscious (Rev 6:10)?

Because the Life (Christ) is in their presence. Same way that Christ could have preached to those in the world of the dead when He went there, and the dead could hear Him.
Christ did not preach to "those in the world of the dead."
He did. If He would preach to the imprisoned spirits of angels (spirit beings) in Tartarus, then why would He not also preach to the imprisoned spirits of MAN in sheol, when He descended? Out of love, compassion, and mercy for such ones?
No he did not. There were NOT (and are not) any "imprisoned spirits of man" anywhere. The "spirit" of a person is simply the power of God keeping someone alive. He uses His holy spirit to do these things. That is why someone will refer to their LIFE FORCE as "their spirit."

People who have died are UNCONSCIOUS. They have no senses, no realization of what is happening.


"The dead are conscious of NOTHING." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)


Stop giving Satan's ideas more credence than they deserve. It was he who said "you will not die." (Gen.3:4)

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #108

Post by onewithhim »

marco wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
So....it was the disobedient ANGELS that Jesus visited after his resurrection. It wasn't any dead people. You are misconstruing what Peter said about Jesus going to speak to the spirits in prison. They were DEMONS in "Tartarus"---a darkened spiritual state. Your Lord doesn't make these things clear to you? But...that's right...if what he says conflicts with the scripture you go with what he says, right?
The difference between your two interpretations is that Tam's makes some sense. Why would Jesus want to visit DEMONS? His visit would more properly seem to be an act of kindness, an announcement that they are released, by his redemption, from their captive chains. Your view does not stand up to scrutiny, so it would seem you are the one who has misconstrued.
You think she makes more sense, when she boldly says that she will listen to her "Lord" that tells her things rather than the written Word??? She says that people who have died are CONSCIOUS in Sheol or "under the altar" in heaven. Have you not sensed the reasonableness of my explanations after dismantling her erroneous ideas? Dead people are conscious??? Why does King Solomon say that they are NOT conscious? Why does Jesus talk about bringing the dead OUT OF THEIR GRAVES in "the last day" if they are really "under the altar" in heaven? I can't believe you would say that her house-of-cards-arguments are more sensible than mine.

You forget that Jesus was close to the demons before they turned against God. They were all good angels, for untold billions of years. Why wouldn't Jesus go to them after he had accomplished what he set out to do, to speak to them? Those were his brothers at one time. That is not so far-fetched. What IS far-fetched is the idea that dead people were still alive and conscious somewhere, even when the Bible teaches otherwise. Your appraisal of her nonsense is mind-numbing.

You've slam-dunked me into the garbage disposal, but how about the scholarly opinion of "Witness Lee of the Recovery Version of the New Testament"? Here is what he says:

"Throughout the centuries great teachers of different schools had had varying interpretations concerning the spirits in prison. The most acceptable according to the Scriptures is as follows: the spirits here refer not to disembodied spirits of dead human beings held in Hades but to the angels (angels are spirits---Heb.1:14) who fell through disobedience at Noah's time (v.20) and are imprisoned in pits of gloom, awaiting the judgment of the great day (2Peter 2:4-5; Jude 6).

"After his death in the flesh, Christ in his living Spirit went to these rebellious angels to proclaim, perhaps, God's victory, accomplished through his incarnation in Christ and Christ's death in the flesh, over Satan's scheme to derange the divine plan
."


THAT explanation is closest to an explanation that harmonizes with all other scriptures. Are you bothering to actually look up the cited verses?


.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #109

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: [Replying to post 95 by JehovahsWitness]
So the Holy City comes down out of heaven but God isn't in it?!

I think I may understand some of your confusion here.


The Holy City is a city made of PEOPLE.

God is in the Holy City (the New Jerusalem, the Bride, which is the city made of PEOPLE) by means of holy spirit. Just as Christ is in God, and God is in Christ; and Christ is in us (we who have been given holy spirit, the water of life) and we are in Christ (in His Body).

So of course God is in New Jerusalem when she comes down out of heaven, by means of holy spirit. But that does not mean that He has come down in person.


If God rules from the spirit realm why cannot Jesus do the same?
Are you sure you are not confusing what someone CAN do with what someone WILL do?



If God "comes down to earth" in some other sense all the while still actually being in heaven in the spirit realm, could this not be a clue as to what Jesus does? ie "come down to earth" but not actually leave the spirit realm...
No.

For example:

The New Jerusalem comes down OUT OF heaven. Revelation 21:2

And Revelation 3:12 states the same thing:

“‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.


You (and other from your religion that I have spoken to on this forum) always seem to overlook the statement that the New Jerusalem comes OUT OF heaven.

You pay attention to the 'come down', but overlook the "out of"...



I do not have to explain to you that the Bride and Christ are together in person at this time... as I believe you also understand that she follows the lamb wherever He goes (hence, if she is coming down out of heaven, it is because He is coming down out of heaven.). Plus, we who are in Christ are already one with Him by means of holy spirit NOW. But we are waiting for Christ to come again.

No, Christ comes literally - with every eye seeing Him - first gathering us all up to Him to be married (those of us who have died and those of us who are still alive at His coming). Then the New Jerusalem (the Bride) comes down out of heaven, and the Kingdom is established upon the earth.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
The New Jerusalem's INFLUENCE comes down out of heaven!

You take so many things literally in Revelation when they could not be literal. Revelation describes the New Jerusalem as having twelve gates, walls with foundation stones, its length and breadth equal, as a perfect cube; the foundations consisted of precious stones, and the 12 gates had twelve pearls. So you say that New Jerusalem is made up of PEOPLE, which is correct. But why do you take Rev.21:2,3 literally when it says that the holy city and God are "coming down" out of heaven, when Rev.21:11-21 could not reasonably be considered literal? Are the people that the city is made up of actually bedecked with precious stones and pearls on their "foundations" and "gates"? How do you get around the fact that the city is described in much detail and yet is made up of PEOPLE? So we have to consider that most of that chapter is SYMBOLIC, and the idea that God and New Jerusalem "come down" out of heaven is also SYMBOLIC. If it is not, then thousands of people are going to come down with foundation stones and gates and walls of precious stones on their persons!

:shock:

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Post #110

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Let me ask you a question (or two), JW.

Do you think that the Bride (the New Jerusalem) reigns as kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years?

Where do you think they are ruling with Him?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
In heaven! From heaven!

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