What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

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What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #81

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: May you have peace.
[Replying to post 69 by onewithhim]

There is no scriptural evidence that what you say there is true. You are regurgitating pagan philosophy. You are a student of Plato, not Jesus.
I don't know Plato, I know my Lord, Christ Jaheshua.

And I shared scriptural evidence. You may not see it because you are a student of the WTS, and they do not see it.
"The flesh counts for nothing" only to those few co-rulers of Christ who will be changed at their death and go to heaven to be with him, thereby having to have spirit bodies.
That is not what Christ said though is it?

He did not say 'the flesh counts for nothing... ONLY TO THOSE FEW ANOINTED'


That is what the WTS says (and you are repeating)...but they are adding to His words, adding their own interpretation and spin.



They do this often... and they have misled a lot of people who are looking to them for truth. Same as every other religion has done.

But we are supposed to be listening to and following Christ! No one else has the words of eternal life; no one else can give us life; no one else is the Word of God, no one else is the Truth.

So why follow anyone or anything other than Him?



Peace again to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
No, ma'am, the WT does not add to Jesus' words and put their own spin on things. You are adding a whole lot of stuff by being beguiled by pagan philosophy.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #82

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:The spirit of a man is what descends to the grave, sleeping, conscious of nothing... or the spirit of a man is what is received by Christ, resting (sleeping) under the altar, awaiting the first resurrection.
So the holy ones die, go to heaven but are still unconscious in heaven? How do they "cry out" from under the alter if they are unconscious (Rev 6:10)?

Because the Life (Christ) is in their presence. Same way that Christ could have preached to those in the world of the dead when He went there, and the dead could hear Him.
Christ did not preach to "those in the world of the dead." I have explained what I Peter 3:18,19 means, quite a few times before, but you don't give that any credence.

The Scripture says: "he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison," and continues on: "who were once disobedient...in the days of Noah."(NASB) It does not say that he went "to the world of the dead." How do you arrive at that idea?

He didn't go to the "world of the dead." He went to speak to spirits---spirit persons---who had disobeyed in Noah's day. Who were the "spirits" that disobeyed in Noah's day? Genesis 6:2 tells us that it was a certain group of ANGELS ("sons of God") that came down and took human wives for themselves. Peter elaborates on this fact: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah...[etc]." (2 Peter 2:4,5, KJV) And Jude further comments: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, under darkness, unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6, KJV)

So....it was the disobedient ANGELS that Jesus visited after his resurrection. It wasn't any dead people. You are misconstruing what Peter said about Jesus going to speak to the spirits in prison. They were DEMONS in "Tartarus"---a darkened spiritual state. Your Lord doesn't make these things clear to you? But...that's right...if what he says conflicts with the scripture you go with what he says, right?
Last edited by onewithhim on Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #83

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote:Do you think that Christ is/will be trapped in the spiritual realm?
Is the Father "trapped" in the spirit realm since no one has seen him? Do you think he has been moving back and forth like you suggest Jesus will be doing?

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #84

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote: [Replying to post 77 by JehovahsWitness]

I sincerely apologize if I am the one who is being unclear... but it makes perfect sense to me that one could be awoken from a rest, speak and be given something, and then be told to rest for just a little bit longer.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

But if they are "awoken" even it it's for a short time isn't that a "resurrection" or do you have a new word to call being dead and then being alive again?

No, that is not a resurrection anymore than it was a resurrection when those in Sheol/Hades listened as Christ preached to them when He went there.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Last edited by tam on Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #85

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 84 by tam]

Can you explain what you believe a resurrection to be? (I see I have been under the misconception its when someone dies and comes back to life (ie is no longer dead).

JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #86

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:Do you think that Christ is/will be trapped in the spiritual realm?
Is the Father "trapped" in the spirit realm since no one has seen him? Do you think he has been moving back and forth like you suggest Jesus will be doing?

JW

That was a deflection.

The Father has had a reason not to show Himself to mankind. (no one may see me and live)

Plus no one can come to Him except through His Son, the mediator. The Father is the Most Holy, and one cannot reach the Most Holy except through the Holy.


So He has appointed a mediator, the image of the Living God, and we MAY see and hear Him.


So would you like to answer the questions that I asked now?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #87

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote: [Replying to post 77 by JehovahsWitness]

I sincerely apologize if I am the one who is being unclear... but it makes perfect sense to me that one could be awoken from a rest, speak and be given something, and then be told to rest for just a little bit longer.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

But if they are "awoken" even it it's for a short time isn't that a "resurrection" or do you have a new word to call being dead and then being alive again?

No, that is not a resurrection anymore than it was a resurrection when those in Sheol/Hades listed as Christ preached to them when He went there.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
I JUST explained to you, in post #82, what is really going on with Christ speaking to the spirits in "prison." Yet you apparently ignored it. Wow.

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #88

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 86 by tam]

That's a deflection. Has God been moving between the two realms as Jesus will be doing? Will God be moving between heaven and earth with Jesus, if not, is it because he is "trapped" in the spirit realm?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #89

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 86 by tam]

What happens after the 1000 year realm? Do the Buddists and ex-atheists all get to spend eternity with God in heaven? Do they stay on earth and move back an forth between the realms or will they be "condemned" to spend eternity apart from Jesus who will I presume (correct me if I'm wrong) return to making heaven his "home base"

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

Post #90

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 86 by tam]

That's a deflection. Has God been moving between the two realms as Jesus will be doing? Will God be moving between heaven and earth with Jesus, if not, is it because he is "trapped" in the spirit realm?

I answered why He is in the spiritual realm. (not moving back and forth, though He can do so). So I did not deflect. But you still have not answered any of my questions.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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