The Fate of Nonbelievers

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The Fate of Nonbelievers

Post #1

Post by myth-one.com »

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)
  1. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
  2. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
  3. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
  4. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
  5. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
  6. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
  7. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
  8. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
  9. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.
Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

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Post #181

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: I'm done carrying on a meaningless discussion. Never the twain shall meet, I guess. Fare thee well.
You know what they saw:

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. :(

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Post #182

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myth-one.com wrote:
myth-one.com wrote:
onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 164 by myth-one.com]

Jesus wasn't immortal until AFTER his death and resurrection.

You do not take the scriptures seriously, do you?
Jesus Christ came down from heaven to the earth as the Word (a spirit) made flesh (Jesus).

After Jesus died and was resurrected, He ascended up to heaven:
John 3:13 wrote:And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Is the man Jesus Christ now in Heaven?
onewithhim wrote:No. The spirit being that is Jesus is now in heaven.
"Jesus" is back in Heaven as the Word. Yes, the Word is a Spirit.
onewithhim wrote:He was "put to death in the flesh and then made alive as a spirit." (I Peter 3:18) He was not resurrected as a fleshly man.
Wrong.

Jesus Christ confirmed that He was resurrected as a flesh and bone human:
But they were terrified and affrightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:37-39)
I'll have to side with Jesus on this issue.

Not only does this confirm that Jesus was resurrected as a man, it also negates the myth that mankind is a "spirit."

Jesus states that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones."

Man has flesh and bones, thus man has no spiritual body. That is what we are missing. Thus we must be born again of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God. It's so simple.
onewithhim wrote:He had given up his human life. If he took back his body of flesh, he would have taken back his sacrifice & we would still be in our sins.
Once He died on the cross without having sinned, salvation was secured for "whosoever believeth in Him."

His first death was appointed and saved no one.

Neither would a second, third, fourth ... etc!
Man has a spirit soul and physical body. This is a scriptural fact. One someone is saved God must quicken man's spirit.


Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

“There is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding� (Job 32:8).

Yes the breath of life was placed into Adam after God lowered him from the realm pure spirit, to the realm of dust (serpent food)

*****Sixth day*****
Gen. 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.



In Genesis 2:16-27. God is a Spirit and if we were made in His image which is spirit; that is when man became a spirit and who knows how long Adam was pure spirit. This all happened on the six day(what ever that means?) ; it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul; New day new experience in Adam different phases in His creation. Man was a spirit first and then and only then is he lowered to from pure spirit to dust, and soulish man.



Eph 2:1-8 gives a clear view in context how the salvation process is accomplished in carnal man. God’s Spirit has to quicken us out of our dead spiritual state. Our spirit needs to be quicken out of that state of spiritual death.

Being dead spiritually is so easy to understand. Have you ever see some one dead? Well a spiritual man is dead to hearing seeing, receiving God and all the man made doctrine of freewill or choice cannot and will not waken carnal man out of that dead spiritual state.


"QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! making it active, operative, energizing and effective, notice the context of Ephesians which shows us step by step how the salvation process works.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

God does not quicken our carnal flesh or our soul but our spirit. For His Spirit and ours learn to hear God.

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Post #183

Post by myth-one.com »

Benoni wrote:Man has a spirit soul and physical body. This is a scriptural fact.
I know what a physical body is.

What is a "spirit soul?"

Are you referring to the mythical immortal soul living within a physical body theology?

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Post #184

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 179 by Benoni]
In Genesis 2:16-27. God is a Spirit and if we were made in His image which is spirit; that is when man became a spirit and who knows how long Adam was pure spirit. This all happened on the six day(what ever that means?) ;
Yes, God is spirit, and man was made in His image.

However, that does not mean being made "a spirit' or "pure spirit".

Man was made male and female, as a living soul, with the breath or spirit of life, on the sixth day. Genesis 1:27; 2:7.

it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul; New day new experience in Adam different phases in His creation. Man was a spirit first and then and only then is he lowered to from pure spirit to dust, and soulish man.
That is completely false, a bold attempt to add to the Word of God.

God rested on the seventh day, Genesis 2:1-3.

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Post #185

Post by Benoni »

[Replying to post 181 by Checkpoint]

So if Adam was not pure Spirit before the seventh day when God formed him from the dust of the earth and made him a living soul what was he????. Notice time frme in context in bold big letters. Context...

Genesis 1-2 (King James Version)

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


Notice all the above. Adam was not yet a soul or flesh. What was he during this time frame we have no idea how long a period.


Genesis 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here it is the seventh day... Context....


8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.




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Post #186

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Benoni wrote:So if Adam was not pure Spirit before the seventh day when God formed him from the dust of the earth and made him a living soul what was he????.
No man nor woman was ever created as "pure Spirit."

Mankind was made in the image of God. But that obviously does not mean identical to God because after man was created, God said the following:
Genesis 3:22 wrote:And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So there were at least two differences between man and God when man was originally created.

Those differences were knowledge of good and evil, and longevity.

But man gained knowledge of good and evil when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Man was then ejected from the garden so that he could not also eat from the tree of life and live forever.

God is immortal because He is a Spirit:
John 4:24 wrote:God is a Spirit:
Man is mortal and dies. Had man eaten from the tree of life, they would have become equal to God and the other spirits by gaining everlasting spiritual life.

=======================================================================

The re-creation of the earth is declared to be completed in genesis 2:1:
Genesis 2:1 wrote:Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Genesis 2:4 states that the the verses that follow are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created in chapter 1:
Genesis 2:4 wrote:These (following verses) are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created (in Chapter one), in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens (in other words, the following verses are history because the heavens and earth were completed by Genesis 2:1!),
So chapter two details how things were created:

For example, on the sixth day, God created man and woman:
Genesis 1:27 wrote:So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
But how did God generate man and woman on the sixth day? The answer to that question is in Chapter 2 of Genesis:
Genesis 2:7 wrote:And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God does not create or modify man again in genesis 2:7, He simply states how man was generated in Genesis 1:27!

Understand?

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Post #187

Post by Benoni »

myth-one.com wrote:
Benoni wrote:So if Adam was not pure Spirit before the seventh day when God formed him from the dust of the earth and made him a living soul what was he????.
No man nor woman was ever created as "pure Spirit."
Mankind was made in the image of God. But that obviously does not mean identical to God because after man was created, God said the following:
Genesis 3:22 wrote:And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So there were at least two differences between man and God when man was originally created.
You totally pulled this out of context and you are ignoring the context of Genesis. Made in God's image and likeness make us just like God for we are his sons.

Lets look at the Name of God Elohim.

It spelling or interpreted in scripture and Elohim is spelled both “god� and “God�.


The name of God “Elohim� The only name used in the first chapter of Genesis, is GOD, or Elohim (Jehovah is not even in this chapter)

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . . " Gen. 1:26. This was God’s covenant with man. This was His purpose for making man — to have a visible expression of Himself!" "But," you may object, "the fall changed all that!

Now man is but a fallen creature." I must answer that when God made covenant it was not dependent upon man’s keeping any part. It was strictly made on God’s part —an act of His will. This is proven by the statement: "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things. . . but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundations of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" I Peter 1:20.

God knew that man would fail and fall and had made provision for that before it happened! Elohim is God in covenant. His people may not know it, but God has said ,My covenant will I not break, nor alter the word that is gone out of My lips" Psa.89:34.

When He assures us that He will be "our God" (Isa.40:1), He means: "For this is the covenant . . . I will put my laws into their minds, and in their heart will I write them; and I will be unto them a God and they shall be to Me a people" Heb. 8:10.

God has sworn — pledging His Word both for Himself and for His creation. God promises for both parts — saying "I will" and "I shall." He loves, first of all, in virtue of relationship, which does not even consider our sinful condition. "For while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

If we are not children (sons) of God; then what are we?

(Who are the morning stars; note plural. Jesus was called the Bright and morning star; that would be my answer

Job 38:6-8 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I understand this does not fit a lot of old wine skins; but there is something here.


Son’s of God mentioned eleven times in the Bible without hardly digging past all the bad interpretations. You would have to do a pretty deep and lengthy study on the word Elohim; which I admit would be deep and fascinating. Sons of Elohim; son’s of God; yes that is what the scripture is saying;

note Job 1:6.

Look a little deeper at Ps. 82 and notice how the word Elohim was used with both a capital G and lower case; same word same meaning both Strong’s 430 and this has happen all thought out the KJV and who know what other translation.


Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.
Job1:6

Now there was a day when the sons of God (Sons of Elohim) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Son: Heb. OT:1121
ben (bane); from OT:1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., [like OT:1, OT:251, etc.]):
God:

OT:430
elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:




Those differences were knowledge of good and evil, and longevity.

But man gained knowledge of good and evil when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Man was then ejected from the garden so that he could not also eat from the tree of life and live forever.

God is immortal because He is a Spirit:
John 4:24 wrote:God is a Spirit:
Man is mortal and dies. Had man eaten from the tree of life, they would have become equal to God and the other spirits by gaining everlasting spiritual life.

=======================================================================

The re-creation of the earth is declared to be completed in genesis 2:1:
Genesis 2:1 wrote:Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Genesis 2:4 states that the the verses that follow are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created in chapter 1:
Genesis 2:4 wrote:These (following verses) are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created (in Chapter one), in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens (in other words, the following verses are history because the heavens and earth were completed by Genesis 2:1!),
So chapter two details how things were created:

For example, on the sixth day, God created man and woman:
Genesis 1:27 wrote:So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
But how did God generate man and woman on the sixth day? The answer to that question is in Chapter 2 of Genesis:
Genesis 2:7 wrote:And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God does not create or modify man again in genesis 2:7, He simply states how man was generated in Genesis 1:27!

Understand?
This so twisted and spun its a joke. You totally ignore the context of Genesis.

You totally ignore the three verse I post where man has a spirit.

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Post #188

Post by myth-one.com »

[center]The Blame Game [/center]

Kindergarten and first grade teachers know the answer to the following question before it is ever asked: Who hit who first?

The answer is obvious. "He (or she) hit me first. No, he hit me first. No, he hit me first. No, he hit me first..." These children were born only a few years earlier as perfectly spotless and without even a knowledge of sin. What happened? Observe their learning environment the past six years. Daddy blames Mommy. Mommy blames Daddy. Brother blames sister. Sister blames brother. Grandpa blames Grandma. Grandma blames Grandpa, etc. Is it any wonder that we have become the most litigious society in the world? When did this blame cycle begin? In Genesis:

And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. (Genesis 3:12-13)
Neither the man nor the woman accepted responsibility for their actions. Man blamed his sin on the woman, and indirectly on God for giving him the woman in the first place, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." The woman blamed her sin on the serpent. Men and women have had a problem trusting each other ever since. Is this attribute of blaming others for our sins an innate characteristic of man? If we isolated a newborn boy and girl and raised them together on a deserted island, they would likely grow up blaming each other for their failures.

Who do we ultimately blame? When we accidentally hit our thumb with a hammer do we accept responsibility and shout "Damn me?" Probably not. Most of us curse the omnipotent creator and say the "GD" word. After all, if He had not given us a thumb, we would not have hit it in the first place! So we still do as Adam and blame God.
Thus, man has not progressed very far in six thousand years when it comes to accepting responsibility. While we quickly accept credit for successes, we remain like Adam and Eve in accepting responsibility for failures. We must have that someone to blame!

Man is thus cursed with religious hatred, racial hatred, sexual preference hatred . . . and on, and on, and on. Americans are fortunate to live in a multiracial and ethnic country where our differences are obvious. Thus, we can say the black guy did it. Or the white guy, or the brown guy, or the guy with slanted eyes, or the Jewish guy, or the Christian, or the Islamic guy, or the homosexual, or the atheist, or the Democrat, or the Republican. I can't find a job because they're only hiring illegals, or minorities, or women. Americans may thus freely pick and choose from a wide selection of groups to blame for their failures. While some blame several groups others isolate against one. Some hate in generalities, using terms such as minorities or the even more vague "them." Regardless, America is blessed with many groups and most of us can find at least one to look down on and even hate. In fact, much effort and many resources are expended in our nation due to hate.

But what about countries like India and Rhodesia whose citizens all look basically the same? Incredible, unnatural separations were created to divide them into separate competing groups. Thus India has the caste system while Rhodesians are either Tutsi or Hutu. Ah, now they can blame each other for their shortcomings. These systems illustrate the importance of having someone to blame. When there are no natural differences separating us, we design artificial ones!

In actuality, if we could stand back a long distance and observe all the "diverse" groups, we would discover that we are not really that different! If you are a parent for example, you want a good life and future for your children and grandchildren, no matter what else you are. In fact, the objectives, hopes, emotions, and desires of all of us can be summarized in a very few short sentences. This is no great or new discovery on my part. Such lists exist from long ago. My favorite and the one I love the most begins with the words, "We hold these truths to be self-evident ..."

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Post #189

Post by myth-one.com »

Benoni wrote:You totally ignore the three verse I post where man has a spirit.
Actually, the word "Spirit" appears once, and only once, in your posting #182
Benoni wrote:So if Adam was not pure Spirit . . .
See it right there on the first line?

Word seven?

What "three verses" are you referring to?

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Post #190

Post by Benoni »

myth-one.com wrote:
Benoni wrote:You totally ignore the three verse I post where man has a spirit.
Actually, the word "Spirit" appears once, and only once, in your posting #182
So what does made in God's image and likeness suppose to mean. That is where i get the word spirit because God is a spirit and we are his sons.
Benoni wrote:So if Adam was not pure Spirit . . .
See it right there on the first line?
??????

Word seven?

What "three verses" are you referring to?

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

“There is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding� (Job 32:8).

Man is a spirit soul and flesh. When man dies his spirit returns to God who gave it.

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