Partial Universalism?

[liamconnor]

Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?


26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)

[onewithhim]

Does Paul believe that every single Jew will eventually be saved, both past, future (from his perspective) and present?


26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (Rom 11:26 ESV)

No. He explains in further letters that the natural Jews have been replaced as a special nation by the Christian congregation---all those believing in Christ.

"But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:14-16, NASB)

He clearly designates the "Israel of God" to be those who walk by the rule of "boasting" in the cross of Christ. He goes on to say: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." (Galatians 3:28,29) It is only the Christians who make up the Israel of God. Being a natural Jew no longer means anything. Isn't that what he says above? Of course there are many natural Jews that do believe in Jesus, from the time of Jesus to now. But it is their acceptance of Jesus that makes them God's special people.

Peter said to a group of Christians: "You are a 'chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the One that called you out of darkness into His wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people." (I Peter 2:9,10)

This is what we call "proof texting": isolating sentences to prove one's point.

How about an exegesis of the passage in question? First year students in biblical studies are taught to read a passage and not impose upon a passage.

That is what is called showing evidence from the Bible to prove one's point. What would YOU say about those verses? It looks pretty clear to me.

[Anomaly]

[Replying to post 38 by Anomaly]

We have discussed the subject of everlasting destruction and the "fire" prepared for the devil and his angels quite a bit. It's too bad you missed that interesting exchange of views. A perusal of the threads entitled "Hell" and "Is hell eternal" will give people a good idea of what the fire prepared for the devil and his angels is all about. This "fire" is symbolic language for complete destruction, as a fire will totally engulf and destroy whatever it comes in contact with. The annihilationist comes out on top in this argument.

BTW, how can you say that destruction/annihilation is not a punishment? Isn't going to sleep, as it were, forever, a pretty dire punishment? Is there really a worse one? Your reasoning is odd.

Hi onewithin,

Thanks for your response.
First, I didn't say anywhere that destruction/annihilation is not a punishment. I believe these concepts are tied very directly to punishment.

Second, how would you respond to the logical proof offered that both the eternal hell and annihilation doctrines violate the perfection of God? And for the record I agree with you that fire as used throughout the figurative passages of the Bible does indeed annihilate the enemies of God just as Scripture suggests.

You say the Annihilationist comes out on top, but you fail to overcome the tensions imposed by the passages that support Universalism or eternal punishment. Until these tensions are resolved, doctrine does not possess the entire truth. To the contrary, I believe I can show how to resolve most or all of these tensions and prove that Universalism has been God's salvific plan from the beginning.

[JP Cusick]

Then exactly who are the "wicked" and the ones that will be destroyed when Christ comes at Armageddon?

"Evildoers will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more." (Psalm 37:9,10) "Those being blessed by him will possess the earth, but those upon whom evil is called by him will be cut off." (Psalm 37:22)

"As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it." (Proverbs 2:22)

"It is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength..." (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)

Who are these, if everyone is saved?

God loves His enemies, but God hates the sins.

Hate the sins, but love the sinners.

So yes there are plenty of wicked people, and their wickedness will be cut off and destroyed as every person gets saved.

This is made perfectly clear in this text here:

" If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. " 1 Corinthians 3:15

The fire of God cleans and purifies the sins away from the sinner and thereby SAVED.

There is no need to seek further punishment against those people who are forgiven and reconciled to the Father.

The judicial vengeance and the everlasting destruction is only against the sins while each person gets saved.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 38 by Anomaly]

We have discussed the subject of everlasting destruction and the "fire" prepared for the devil and his angels quite a bit. It's too bad you missed that interesting exchange of views. A perusal of the threads entitled "Hell" and "Is hell eternal" will give people a good idea of what the fire prepared for the devil and his angels is all about. This "fire" is symbolic language for complete destruction, as a fire will totally engulf and destroy whatever it comes in contact with. The annihilationist comes out on top in this argument.

BTW, how can you say that destruction/annihilation is not a punishment? Isn't going to sleep, as it were, forever, a pretty dire punishment? Is there really a worse one? Your reasoning is odd.

Hi onewithin,

Thanks for your response.
First, I didn't say anywhere that destruction/annihilation is not a punishment. I believe these concepts are tied very directly to punishment.

Second, how would you respond to the logical proof offered that both the eternal hell and annihilation doctrines violate the perfection of God? And for the record I agree with you that fire as used throughout the figurative passages of the Bible does indeed annihilate the enemies of God just as Scripture suggests.

You say the Annihilationist comes out on top, but you fail to overcome the tensions imposed by the passages that support Universalism or eternal punishment. Until these tensions are resolved, doctrine does not possess the entire truth. To the contrary, I believe I can show how to resolve most or all of these tensions and prove that Universalism has been God's salvific plan from the beginning.

Those tensions have been resolved on those other threads entitled "Hell" and "Eternal Hell." Please go to them and read through the discussions. Annihilation can indeed be called "punishment."

[Anomaly]

[Replying to post 44 by onewithhim]
Have to say, I'm surprised that of all the discussions on the topic of Christian salvation I've read on theology boards the last 20+ years, none of the three contenders--Annihilationism, traditional hell or Universalism--have been able to resolve the tensions their antagonists provide to them. It's amazing that these tensions have been resolved on this message board, yet the rest of the Christian world has not yet been informed of this breakthrough.

Now I'm more curious than ever, especially in light of the news that my Annihilationist brethren here have conquered all logical and Biblical objections to their doctrine, to know how you dispute the proof I laid out in a previous post that both Annihilationism and eternal torment cannot be true because they violate God's perfection. Again, how would you respond?

Since you won't respond directly I'll play the game and find those other posts when I get time.

[onewithhim]

Then exactly who are the "wicked" and the ones that will be destroyed when Christ comes at Armageddon?

"Evildoers will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more." (Psalm 37:9,10) "Those being blessed by him will possess the earth, but those upon whom evil is called by him will be cut off." (Psalm 37:22)

"As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it." (Proverbs 2:22)

"It is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength..." (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)

Who are these, if everyone is saved?

God loves His enemies, but God hates the sins.

Hate the sins, but love the sinners.

So yes there are plenty of wicked people, and their wickedness will be cut off and destroyed as every person gets saved.

This is made perfectly clear in this text here:

" If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. " 1 Corinthians 3:15

The fire of God cleans and purifies the sins away from the sinner and thereby SAVED.

There is no need to seek further punishment against those people who are forgiven and reconciled to the Father.

The judicial vengeance and the everlasting destruction is only against the sins while each person gets saved.

I am sorry to disagree with you, but you are resisting what those scriptures are actually saying. They don't say that the wicked will be cleansed.....they say that the wicked themselves will be destroyed.

The wicked are those people who are incorrigible; they will never change their evil behavior. It is as Isaiah 26:10 says:

"Though the wicked is shown favor, he does not learn righteousness; he deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, and does not perceive the majesty of the LORD."


.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 44 by onewithhim]
Have to say, I'm surprised that of all the discussions on the topic of Christian salvation I've read on theology boards the last 20+ years, none of the three contenders--Annihilationism, traditional hell or Universalism--have been able to resolve the tensions their antagonists provide to them. It's amazing that these tensions have been resolved on this message board, yet the rest of the Christian world has not yet been informed of this breakthrough.

Now I'm more curious than ever, especially in light of the news that my Annihilationist brethren here have conquered all logical and Biblical objections to their doctrine, to know how you dispute the proof I laid out in a previous post that both Annihilationism and eternal torment cannot be true because they violate God's perfection. Again, how would you respond?

Since you won't respond directly I'll play the game and find those other posts when I get time.

I have responded to your allegations. I remember discussing the very things you mention here. But perhaps it was to someone else that I responded. If you would be so good as to go over those two threads, it would be a help to me....not to have to do my research and scripture searches all over again.

I do not see how Annihilation violates God's perfection. How could putting someone to death forever violate "perfection"? Isn't it merciful to put someone to sleep forever rather than torturing him in a literal fire? The fire torture would negate anything good about God! But mercifully putting an incorrigibly evil person to "sleep" shows compassion on God's part for both the wicked person (that he is not tortured mercilessly without end) and the good person that the wicked person can't bother any more. I can't see imperfection in that.

[Anomaly]

[Replying to post 47 by onewithhim]

I have responded to your allegations. I remember discussing the very things you mention here. But perhaps it was to someone else that I responded. If you would be so good as to go over those two threads, it would be a help to me....not to have to do my research and scripture searches all over again.

I get the distinct feeling you are either ignoring what I post or are participating in multiple discussions at once and mistaking my posts for others. You most certainly have not responded to my "allegations".

I read several pages of the hell thread, and realized there is no point to it. I am not defending the notion of eternal hell. I believe the Annihilationist doctrine is superior to the eternal hell doctrine on several counts. But your repeatedly referring me to those hell posts has almost nothing to do with what I've posted. The point I made is that from a literal standpoint all three salvific positions--eternal hell, Annihilationism and Universalism--have supporting passages in the Scriptures and the standard arguments of all three provide a ground of warrant for belief of any of the three. There is no need for you to refer me to former discussions on eternal hell, I have not defended it in any post here, nor have I any intention of arguing for that position.

I do not see how Annihilation violates God's perfection. How could putting someone to death forever violate "perfection"?

Then you apparently haven't read my post #38 in this thread, onewithin. Please read it so you can respond specifically to the particular argument made there.

Isn't it merciful to put someone to sleep forever rather than torturing him in a literal fire? The fire torture would negate anything good about God! But mercifully putting an incorrigibly evil person to "sleep" shows compassion on God's part for both the wicked person (that he is not tortured mercilessly without end) and the good person that the wicked person can't bother any more. I can't see imperfection in that.

Yes, I agree: annihilation of the sinner is much more merciful than eternal torture. As a Christian Universalist I embrace with my Annihilationist brethren a number of points in common. I consider the Annihilationist position to be more spiritually advanced and in possession of a greater degree of truth than the traditional eternal punishment doctrine. But annihilationism is only halfway to the truth of God's great plan for humanity.

You stated in an earlier post that Godly [Biblical] fire, "...is symbolic language for complete destruction, as a fire will totally engulf and destroy whatever it comes in contact with. The annihilationist comes out on top in this argument." Two points about this statement:
1) Godly fire does not destroy everything. I make the argument in post #38 that logically Godly fire ONLY consumes false things. God is pure Truth, it is logically impossible for Him to destroy any true or good thing. In fact, a study of the effects of Godly fire in the OT bears this truth out.
2) I concur that the annihilationist comes out on top against the doctrine of eternal punishment in hellfire, but gently suggest that all the same, this doctrine is unable to resolve the logical argument in post #38.

I'd appreciate it if you or another Annihilationist here (there seem to be a considerable number of you) would address the specific argument made in that post.

[JP Cusick]

This is made perfectly clear in this text here:

" If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. " 1 Corinthians 3:15

The fire of God cleans and purifies the sins away from the sinner and thereby SAVED.

I am sorry to disagree with you, but you are resisting what those scriptures are actually saying. They don't say that the wicked will be cleansed.....they say that the wicked themselves will be destroyed.

In a way it is interesting even though it is not praiseworthy, that she declares the exact opposite that the scripture declares.

That Bible text specifically says the the person will be saved and then she says the person gets destroyed - the exact opposite.

She accuses me of resisting what the scriptures actually say and yet here is she contradicting the exact words of the scriptures.

Surely this fulfills these words of Jesus in Matthew 13:
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

To the wisdom of scripture = say Amen. :yapyap:

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 48 by Anomaly]

My point has been that the other two choices besides annihilation DO NOT have supporting scriptures to back them up. That is what I keep trying to get across. And if you paid attention to the arguments that have been going on in those threads concerning "Hell," you would see that not all three ideas of man's destiny are feasible. There is only one, and I think you know which one it is.