The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #780]

First we need to establish if Jesus was referred to two groups of sheep OR two individuel sheep.

Checkpoint wrote: (↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:25 am)

Two sheep and, maybe, two folds.''

=quote]When you say "two sheep" do you mean two sheep singular or two sheep plural (in english we dont say "sheeps") ?

Did Jesus say he had "another" sheep or "other" sheep (If Jesus said he had "other sheep" (plural) even if there was a single solitary sheep in the fold, he spoke of two groups (ie two seperate catagorizations) of sheep) ?

It's quite simple, really.

"My sheep", verse 14, and "other sheep", verse 16.

Neither are "individual sheep"; two sheep, plural.

To fully grasp what we are discussing, we first need to read and ponder on the entire passage; that is, John 10:1-16.

[JehovahsWitness]

"My sheep", verse 14, and "other sheep", verse 16.

So how many "groups" (I think you will not object to the word "group" (of sheep) since we are agreed Jesus was speaking of sheep in plural)?

So just to clarify: Specifically refering to John 10:16 how many groups of sheep did Jesus initially refer to?

Jesus in the pasage did not refer to two groups ....

[Revelations won]

Dear Checkpoint and JW,

We should remember that in the last days the the “God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom” Nowhere in your posts do either of you give any evidence of this “kingdom” being set up by the “God of Heaven” as stated in Daniel 2:44
.
Daniel 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Also Christ testified regarding to the other sheep which are not of this fold.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Who are the other sheep which are not of this fold?

Perhaps you might find the answer given by Christ in Matthew 15:24.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Is it very evident that since he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Isarel, that this clearly refers to the ten lost tribes of Israel.


Kind regards,
RW

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Revelations won in post #783]

Also Christ testified regarding to the other sheep which are not of this fold.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Who are the other sheep which are not of this fold?

Perhaps you might find the answer given by Christ in Matthew 15:24.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Is it very evident that since he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Isarel, that this clearly refers to the ten lost tribes of Israel.

Hello, RW.

I will be posting separately on the Kingdom in due course.

So this post is not about that, but about what else you posted on, as quoted above.

On this forum, we debate Scripture as having some authority and, usually, with respect as being from God.

Thus we do not seek to question or change what is written in the Bible, but to express as well as we can, our understanding of it, and to apply it, carefully, as intended by the speaker or writer at the time.

But, sooner or later, we all fail at some time in some way, in one or more of our own posts.

Which only shows we are all made of the same stuff, we are humans finding our way, not perfect and not infallible.

Do you agree with what I have said so far?

I have said that now because I have seen two examples in the part of your post I copied to here to begin this post.

1). You have quoted John 10:16, but one key word is incorrect. You wrote "there shall be one fold, and one shepherd". What Jesus said was
"there shall be one flock, and one shepherd".

Perhaps you quoted from memory?

Whatever, what is written is what is written!

2). That mistake led to your question, "Who are the other sheep which are not of this fold?"

And, it appears, to your own answer, and how you used Matthew 15:24 to in turn lead you to "the ten lost tribes of Israel".

I am sorry, RW, but that is so very far from what Jesus intended to convey.

That is because Jesus mostly spoke of spiritual realities rather than of literal ones. He so often used spiritual language.

For example, his followers were those "who "hear my voice", and are "my sheep".

He never talked of any literal "lost tribes", but always of those who are spiritually lost. Both words in the term "lost sheep" are spiritual, not literal.

I await with interest your response.

I wish you well.




















Hello, RW.

[JehovahsWitness]

1). You have quoted John 10:16, but one key word is incorrect. You wrote "there shall be one fold, and one shepherd". What Jesus said was "there shall be one flock, and one shepherd".

Excellent point. So Jesus spoke of two groups of sheep (I'm sure you will will think better of challenging me on that). Both groups were considered his, so we can conclude that they are Christians ie two groups of Christians.

The next question is did he indicate the second group (the "other sheep") would be put inside the fold ?

• Jesus never said they would made one fold, so the other sheep would not be placed inside the fold

• Jesus never spoke of creating a second fold

• Jesus never spoke of REMOVING/destroying the existing fold (removing any distinction between the two)

• Jesus never spoke of taking the sheep inside the fold, OUT of it.

We can reasonably conclude therefore that the fold continues to exist and the sheep in the fold stay inside despite the arrival of the second group.. In fact Jesus collects the second group (the "other sheep") and unites both groups under his care as "one flock".




JW

[Checkpoint]

1). You have quoted John 10:16, but one key word is incorrect. You wrote "there shall be one fold, and one shepherd". What Jesus said was "there shall be one flock, and one shepherd".

000

Excellent point. So Jesus spoke of two groups of sheep (I'm sure you will will think better of challenging me again on that). Both groups were considered his, and gathered under his care so we can conclude that they are Christians ie two groups of Christians.

The next question is did he indicate the second group (the "other sheep") would be put inside the fold ?

• Jesus never spoke of creating a second fold and never spoke of more than one fold

• Jesus never spoke of REMOVING/destroying the existing fold

• Jesus never spoke of putting the other sheep inside the fold

• Jesus never spoke of taking the sheep inside the fold, OUT of it.

We can reasonably concldue that the fold continues and the sheep in thé fold stay inside despite the arrival of the second group.

JW

O.K.

Will our seeming agreement this far, go any further?

Let's move on to some key points, and find out!

Much of what Jesus says in John 10:1-16 was in figurative language(verse 6); not literal.

So, when Jesus spoke those words, what did he mean by "this fold"?

Who were/are "my sheep"?

Who were/are his "other sheep"?

Are those ok with you to now answer?

I am!

Footnote:

I now see I do have a problem with what you wrote this time about the fold.

However, we can deal with that in our coming discussion of the first question on it.

[JehovahsWitness]

Will our seeming agreement this far, go any further?

What do you mean, "seeming agreement", its not clear, do you agree that Jesus implied two groups/ catagories of sheep or do you NOT agree that Jesus implies two groups/ catagories of sheep?

Jesus in the pasage did not refer to two groups ....

[Checkpoint]

Will our seeming agreement this far, go any further?

What do you mean, "seeming agreement", its not clear, do you agree that Jesus implied two groups/ catagories of sheep or do you NOT agree that Jesus implies two groups/ catagories of sheep?

Jesus in the passage did not refer to two groups ....

Jesus was saying a number of things in John 10:1-16.

His whole theme is how anyone can enter the fold through the gate.

All he said was about that.

It was not about "two groups".

But yes, he said "my sheep" and "other sheep", which implies two categories that are stages.

[JehovahsWitness]

But yes, he said "my sheep" and "other sheep", which implies two categories that are stages.

Two categories of Sheep?

[tam]

Peace to you all,

The Jews are one group. The Samaritans are another group. The Gentiles are yet another group. Even Israel could be said to have come from 12 groups (which then became two groups: Jews and Samaritans; Jews containing two tribes, and Samaritans containing 10 tribes).

The point is not that the sheep come from different groups, or folds, or tribes, or nations.

The point is that Christ's sheep are called and gathered (by Him) and all become ONE flock with one Shepherd.

Christ did not put walls up between His sheep. He did not keep them separate. They were simply from different "sheep pens"... but are all gathered together to become one flock, with one Shepherd.




Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy