The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[PinSeeker]

.... total obliteration, the punishment that one endures is fleeting and/or momentary... at best temporary and surely not eternal.

That would depend in what you identify as "punishment".

You're playing with words, JW. Sort of like Bill Clinton did ("It depends on what the definition of 'is' is.") I hear dance music... No, it depends on what 'eternal' means, and there really is no debate on that.

Biblically the punishment for sin is not "the execution" (which is momentary)...

And you can insert 'annihilation' and/or 'obliteration' for 'execution' in your sentence above. So having said what you've said here, you're actually refuting your own point of view and making the point I've made many times without even meaning to. Yes, that would make the punishment momentary rather than eternal (lasting throughout eternity).

...the punishment (handed only to the incorrigibly wicked) is perpetual death ie . being dead * forever. As long as a person is dead they are subject to said "punishment".

Precisely the problem. This statement is correct, except for the asterisked term. And that's the problem. Like myth-one (although he does it for different reasons), you and other like-minded individuals misconstrue what Biblical death is. It is not -- not -- non-existence. As with the thief crucified with Jesus on his left, unbelievers go somewhere um, exist rather than to paradise with Jesus, which is the destiny of the thief crucified with Jesus on the right. His silence toward the poor fellow on His left is deafening in this regard and should be interpreted no other way; it is a vivid foreshadowing of the Judgment, and perfectly congruent with what we read in Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 25:31-46.

A living God has mercifully refrained from prescribing eternal torture as a punishment for evil.

And this is also playing with words. Nobody -- much less God -- tortures anybody, JW, physically or mentally or any other way. It is very possible for something to be torturous, internally speaking, without someone inflicting actual mental or physical torture upon that person. We have to look no further than this very, um, "conversation" for proof of that.

Grace and peace to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

...the punishment (handed only to the incorrigibly wicked) is perpetual death ie . being dead * forever. As long as a person is dead they are subject to said "punishment".

This statement is correct, except for the asterisked term.

No the statement is biblically correct with the asterisk. You, and adhrents to pagan dogma such as you try and push on people, fail to understand what the bible means when it speaks about death and that my friend is your problem.


Please try and have an excellent evening anyway,




JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN, HELL and ... THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD

[PinSeeker]

No the statement is bibliclly correct with the asterisk. You and adhrents to pagan teachings such as you post fail to understand what the bible means when it speaks about death and that my friend is your problem.

LOL! Absolutely not, my friend, on all three characterizations here. I realize Jehovah's Witnesses think this way, but it is terribly incorrect. Question: Do you think all the folks were mistaken concerning Jairus's daughter being dead in Mark 5 and Luke 8? Because they were not; they knew what physical death looked like. But yet Jesus replied and said she was not dead, but merely sleeping. Do you think, like those who originally heard Jesus say this, that he was mistaken? Or crazy? They laughed at Him, you know. But as we see, He was neither mistaken nor crazy. She was physically dead -- passed from this world -- but still existing; one must exist to be sleeping, right? So, death is something other than non-existence or having been annihilated. So here we gain a little insight into what biblical death really is. If we are not blind, that is. It is something very different than physical death. Annihilation is a gross misunderstanding of what death really is. But you're welcome to your opinion.

Please try and have an excellent evening anyway

You don't really mean that, do you? Thanks, though...

Grace and peace to you, JW.

[JehovahsWitness]

WHY DID JESUS LIKEN DEATH TO SLEEP?



Jesus on more than one occassion likened death to sleep. Speaking of his recently deceased friend Lazarus, Jesus said

JOHN 11 11-15 NIV

“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”. His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.”

Lazare was in fact dead but Jesus initially called it "sleep" why? Because ...

1. when we are asleep we are inactive and not conscious of our surroundings or even of the passing of time.
2. Sleep is a temporary condition which can be reversed.

If death was simply passing from one conscious condition to continued life in another form Jesus could have likened death to trip. He could have for example said that "Lazarus is travelling" or "Lazarus is away". Instead he likened of death to somethjng characterised by inacivity and unconsciousness. For more details please watch the 3 minute video

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/Go ... d-lazarus/



But doesn' t speaking of death as "non-existence" indicate there is no part of the person left?

Yes. That is because there isn't part of the person left. The bible explains that eventually the body returns to dust, the spirit or life force that "animates" it no longer is needed. There is effectively no survivng part of the person. Lazarus was gone...*poof* No longer anywhereto be found in any form! Although his body could still be seen, it wasn't him ; it was just a lifeless decomposing body. Lazarus the person was no more, for four days he ceased to exist.

RESURRECTION GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN

Lazarus story doesnt however end there. Point #2 above was that sleep is a temporary condition. Jesus taught that Jehovah God never forgets his loyal servants. Although they have returned to the same condition as before they where born, God remembers them as if they were still alive. Indeed many of us can simply close out eyes and "see" friends and loved ones long gone with the powers of our memory. As with Lazarus, God can and will by means of Jesus awaken those dead but not forgotten. We call this a RÉSURRECTION. To learn more about this please see the LINKS below.



https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/goo ... d-lazarus/


JW

To read more please go to other posts related to...

PARADISE , THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD and ...THE RESURRECTION

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #933]

Do you think all the folks were mistaken concerning Jairus's daughter being dead in Mark 5 and Luke 8? Because they were not; they knew what physical death looked like. But yet Jesus replied and said she was not dead, but merely sleeping. Do you think, like those who originally heard Jesus say this, that he was mistaken? Or crazy? They laughed at Him, you know. But as we see, He was neither mistaken nor crazy. She was physically dead -- passed from this world -- but still existing; one must exist to be sleeping, right? So, death is something other than non-existence or having been annihilated.

(to the bold)

This is true of the FIRST death, yes.

The example that you gave (Jairus daughter) is an example of someone having died the first death.


The lake of fire (which means the second death) is not involved here in the example of Jairus daughter (or anyone else who has died the first death).

Edited to add (since I seem to have missed some of your exchange with JW):

But yes, the person who dies (the first death) DOES still exist. They are described as being asleep; not as being non-existent.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

WHY DID JESUS LIKEN DEATH TO SLEEP?




Jesus on more than one occassion likened death to sleep. Speaking of his recently deceased friend Lazarus, Jesus said

JOHN 11 11-15 NIV

“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”. His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.”

Lazarus was in fact dead but Jesus initially called it "sleep" why? Because ...

1. when we are asleep we are inactive and not conscious of our surroundings or even of the passing of time.
2. Sleep is a temporary condition which can be reversed.

If death was simply passing from one conscious condition to continued life in another form Jesus could have likened death to trip. He could have for example said that "Lazarus is travelling" or "Lazarus is away". Instead he likened of death to somethjng characterised by inacivity and unconsciousness. For more details please watch the 3 minute video
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/goo ... d-lazarus/

But doesn' t speaking of death as "non-existence" indicate there is no part of the person left?

Yes. That is because there isn't part of the person left. The bible explains that eventually the body returns to dust, the spirit or life force that "animates" it no longer is needed. There is effectively no survivng part of the person. Lazarus was gone...*poof* No longer anywhereto be found in any form! Although his body could still be seen, it wasn't him ; it was just a lifeless decomposing body. Lazarus the person was no more, for four days he ceased to exist.

RESURRECTION GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN

Lazarus story doesnt however end there. Point #2 above was that sleep is a temporary condition. Jesus taught that Jehovah God never forgets his loyal servants. Although they have returned to the same condition as before they where born, God remembers them as if they were still alive. Indeed many of us can simply close out eyes and "see" friends and loved ones long gone with the powers of our memory. As with Lazarus, God can and will by means of Jesus awaken those dead but not forgotten. We call this a RÉSURRECTION. To learn more about this please see the LINKS below.



JW

My goodness. You see what I mean, surely: this "conversation" is truly torturous. Jehovah's Witness, in your "explanation," you correctly admit that "Lazarus was in fact dead" (the video does, too) but then you turn right around (as the video does) and, in essence, say he wasn't dead but asleep and merely unconscious. Love the part showing the red-headed dude sleeping on the train... Is he dead? No. The mere thought is absolutely ridiculous... totally an apples to... well not even apples to oranges... apples to, like, elephants or something. Jehovah's Witness, do you die every night for somewhere between six and eight hours? No, of course not. Neither do I. Neither does any other living person. That video is, quite frankly, ridiculous. It's truly torturous... torturous of Scripture (as if that were possible) and torturous to sit through. It's ridiculous. You have to go no further than the bit about God's pronouncement to Adam that he would return to dust. That just means his life on earth would end, rather than go on forever; this was part of the judgment placed upon humanity because of Adam's sin; absolutely nothing is being said of existence -- nothing -- either its cessation or otherwise. So from the outset, the whole premise of that ridiculous video is silly.

So. Yes, Jairus's daughter (Mark 5, Luke 8), Lazarus (John 11), the son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7)... very much the same story. While they were dead, Jesus commanded them to arise (Jairus's daugther, the son of the widow) and to "come out" (Lazarus). and all three heard and obeyed, incontrovertibly indicating that even though they had died, they all heard and obeyed, something they could not do unless they existed. All three existed after their deaths, and all had their temporal lives restored by the Life-Giver Himself, Jesus. YHVH in the flesh. The second Person of the triune Jehovah.

I agree that yes, temporal death is a temporary condition. Hey, temporal life is also a temporary condition, is it not? Of course it is, for goodness' sake. But existence? Nope. Existence is not temporary, but eternal, because God is eternal, and we are made in His image. The question is only -- chuckle... "only" -- where one is (will be) in eternity to come.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #933]
Do you think all the folks were mistaken concerning Jairus's daughter being dead in Mark 5 and Luke 8? Because they were not; they knew what physical death looked like. But yet Jesus replied and said she was not dead, but merely sleeping. Do you think, like those who originally heard Jesus say this, that he was mistaken? Or crazy? They laughed at Him, you know. But as we see, He was neither mistaken nor crazy. She was physically dead -- passed from this world -- but still existing; one must exist to be sleeping, right? So, death is something other than non-existence or having been annihilated.

(to the bold)

This is true of the FIRST death, yes.

Right, and the second is like it, but final. Mere existence does not cease in either the first nor the second death.

The lake of fire (which means the second death) is not involved here in the example of Jairus daughter (or anyone else who has died the first death).

No, it's not; I agree; But it does give us some insight into the second death, which is final and permanent.

But yes, the person who dies (the first death) DOES still exist. They are described as being asleep; not as being non-existent.

Thank you. Yes, I agree. It's true of the second death, also. The first is temporary, the second is permanent.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #937]

Peace to you,

{We continue to disagree on the meaning of the second death/lake of fire... but we have had that discussion before (and may have it yet again, lol)... and I do not want to detract from the point of your current discussion (about the first death).}


You said in your post to JW:

and all three heard and obeyed, incontrovertibly indicating that even though they had died, they all heard and obeyed, something they could not do unless they existed.

Yes! EXCELLENT point!

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:28, 29




Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you, Checkpoint!

Peace to you all,

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #908]

The problem (or at least one problem) with the idea that thousand years is right now, is that the Adversary is not currently sealed and locked in the Abyss, which he is supposed to be before the start of the thousand years:

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him INTO THE ABYSS, and LOCKED and SEALED it over him, to keep him from deceiving THE NATIONS anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.. Rev 20:1-3

Instead of being bound and sealed and locked in the abyss, the Adversary is roaming about, deceiving the nations (including about the gospel; in order to prevent people from coming to Christ and so also to LIFE):

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8


We are not in the thousand years as of yet.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You have explained how you see what is written in Revelation 20 about Satan.

I will now give another explanation of the same verses, and draw a different conclusion.

It is always easier to grasp what is being said if we look at the immediate context, before we use a wider context in support of any point.

You only used verses 1-3, but the immediate context includes verses 7-10, which read:

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

These later verses tell us what the earlier verses did not specify. Context is key.

Context may be able to help, though people can make mistakes about context (even sometimes because of the erring pen of the scribes). But as I am sure you will agree, Christ is the key to understanding the scriptures.

The earlier verse did not spell out the meaning intended by "not deceive the nations any more until" . The devil deceived them "to gather them for battle".
Therefore,

1). Satan was only stopped from gathering the nations for the final climactic battle with the Lord and His people, not from all his other deception.

2). That final battle is described several times in Revelation.

Including 16:16, 17:14, and 19:19. It is the same battle. There is only one of those.

Further evidence that Revelation is not always chronological.

Grace and peace to you, and to all.

I understand what you did, connecting 'deceiving the nations' with 'gathering them for battle', but:


1 - Deceiving the nations does not mean ONLY 'gathering the nations for battle'... though even if it did mean only that here, please note that the Adversary is locked in the abyss to keep from deceiving the nations. He is not free to roam about on the earth at all.

2 - The Abyss (the pit) is a real place. The Adversary is bound in chains yes, but he is also thrown INTO the Abyss (the pit), which is then locked and sealed over him. He is not free or even able to roam about on the earth during the thousand years because he is literally locked and sealed in the Abyss (the pit). There is even an angel of the Abyss (the pit): the Destroyer (Death), also known as Abaddon/Apollyon.


(Editing just to add a link to the word for abyss (ἄβυσσος): https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... =G12&t=KJV )


Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

{We continue to disagree on the meaning of the second death/lake of fire... but we have had that discussion before (and may have it yet again, lol)... and I do not want to detract from the point of your current discussion (about the first death).}

Fair enough.

You said in your post to JW:

and all three heard and obeyed, incontrovertibly indicating that even though they had died, they all heard and obeyed, something they could not do unless they existed.

Yes! EXCELLENT point!

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:28, 29

Thank you, Tammy. Yes, and it should not be lost that, as I said, this also gives us some insight into what the second -- alternatively, ultimate, greater, everlasting, final... in the same vein as Christ Jesus being the second Adam -- death really is. And I'll piggyback on your quote here from Jesus in John 5:29, especially the latter part of that verse (which I've mentioned before), where unrepentant sinners "come out" -- in obedience, as Lazarus, Jairus's daughter, and the widow's son did -- are raised -- to the resurrection of judgment as opposed to the resurrection of life. This verse should be all that annihilation advocates need to clearly see the direct refutation Scripture -- Jesus Himself -- issues regarding that misunderstanding. The second death is the result of being on the wrong side (the left) of the final Judgment, and is a resurrection to -- clearly indicating ongoing subjection to and remaining in existence in perpetuity under -- God's final judgment. The direct opposite of annihilation, or extinction, and non-existence is what is in view here and is the clear and irrefutable implication.

Grace and peace to you and all!