The kingdom of God.

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Checkpoint
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The kingdom of God.

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:
Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.
So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

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Re: Re:

Post #961

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:21 pm
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm If that is your reason for saying that of some of us, then you are doing the same thing. Because there is nothing in that verse which states that people who rise to judgment remain in existence for all time.
The word 'eternal' is right there, isn't it? And that means for eternity... of eternity... for the duration of eternity. There is no ambiguity.
Have you forgotten which verse was under discussion?

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


Did you not state that people who believe in destruction (annihilation) are adding to what is written in this verse? Well, neither is "eternal existence under judgment" written in this verse.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
There is nothing written in the Bible that even insinuates annihilation, and in fact the opposite is true, especially in the concept of eternal punishment.
This is not true.
Indeed it is true.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm You have been provided evidence of things in the bible which certainly do insinuate annihilation (destruction).
Yes, evidence without merit, and I have been very clear (as the Bible is) why.
You see, this is why I was content not to have this discussion yet again. When it comes to 'that is not true'... 'yes it is true'... nothing more is being added to the discussion.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm Just because you do not accept those things, or dismiss them as having no meaning, does not mean that they do not exist.
I dismiss nothing. I refute it, because the Bible does. "These things" do not exist.
You dispute it. You cannot refute it, for reasons already stated.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
PinSeeker wrote:When something is proclaimed as true, we can easily infer that it's opposite is not true. For example, Jesus says people are either for or against him, and by inference we can easily say that there is no neutral position. By the same token, Jesus says some are raised to life (those on his right in Matthew 25) and others are raised to judgement (those on his left in Matthew 25).
Tam wrote:Matt 25 (specifically the parable of the sheep and goats that you are referencing here) does not speak of a resurrection at all.
PinSeeker wrote:Right, the resurrection itself is not in view, as Jesus is speaking of the final Judgment, which takes place immediately after the second resurrection.
By the standards you are using against some of us, this would mean that you are adding to what is written.
Absolutely not.
Then perhaps you should cease accusing some of us of doing this.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm The sheep and the goats parable does not include mention of a resurrection (because of course the sheep and the goats are the people of the nations who are alive at the time Christ returns).
LOL! Absolutely... well, wrong... incomplete. Included are those who are still alive at the time Jesus returns, but also included are all those who have previously died physically... all the nations. More on this in a moment. But to dispute this is far outside basic Biblical understanding.
Not wrong or even incomplete at all. There is no mention of a resurrection in the sheep and the goats parable. Surely you cannot state that this is false.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm There is also no mention of faith (in Christ) as being the reason that the sheep are invited in and the goats are cast out. Because faith is not the reason for the sheep being invited in or the goats being cast out. The reason the sheep are invited into the Kingdom is listed though: it is based upon their deeds (as mentioned in the parable); upon how they have unknowingly treated Christ.
Good works, those honored by God, are the result of faith.



For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)



These are people who do NATURALLY the requirements of the law (the law which is love), and these ones will also be declared righteous. Not based on their faith (they may or may not have faith). But based upon their deeds; their doing BY NATURE, the things required by the law (love).

We also know that love covers over a multitude of sins. (Proverbs 10:12; 1Peter 4:8)

And of course Christ has said that the merciful will be shown mercy.

In all the condemnation that "Christendom" (and those who adhere to it) make against 'non-believers', they seem to have entirely forgotten about mercy; God's mercy. Yet is that not what God desires?

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice." Hosea 6:6

And did not Christ say to the Pharisees (who would condemn the innocent) to go and learn what that meant?

"Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice."


And as James surely tells us in chapter 2 of his epistle, faith without works is dead --
Yeah... faith without works is dead.

James does not say that works without faith is dead.
if one thinks or says he/she has faith but there are no works to validate that faith, then those works are worthless;


What works?

If someone has no works to accompany their faith... what works are you referring to?

James says that someone who claims to have faith, but has no works to go with their faith, then their faith is dead.

He did not comment on works without faith. YOU are twisting his words to say something that he never said.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm And here is further evidence that the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) are not Christians. Because as Paul said, Christians will caught up to meet the Lord in the sky when He returns, and Christians are changed in a twinkling, at that time. But this is not what happens with the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable. The sheep in that parable are gathered (as people of the nations) along with the goats, for the separation of the sheep and the goats.
  • "For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. 15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
THAT does not happen with the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable. The separation of the sheep and the goats is a different event than the 'catching up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air'. The sheep in the sheep and the goats parable are not Christians.
<chuckles> No, it does not happen IN the sheep and the goats parable, because at the Judgment, Jesus's return will have already taken place.


The parable of the sheep and the goats begins with the King coming in His glory, angels with Him, and sitting on His throne.

And what are you saying, anyway? That Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and they are changed in a twinkling... and then they come back down to the earth and are separated with the rest of the people of the nations? And they didn't realize that during their lifetimes that they had done good to Christ (by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), and they also did not know that they were going to be invited into the Kingdom that they were already a part of, having previously been caught up and changed to be with the Lord forever?

Makes no sense Pinseeker.
The event in question in Matthew 25 coincides with -- is the same event as -- the event described in Revelation 20:11-15, which takes place after Jesus returns and leads the final victory over Satan. The sheep of Matthew 25 are indeed Christians -- ALL Christians; more on this in a moment -- and the goats are not; the goats are all non-Christians. Again, more on this in a moment. But to think otherwise is... not Biblical.
What I shared about the sheep and the goats, I have learned from my Lord (Christ Jaheshua). He is the One who opens the scriptures to us, after all.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
The answer to the first question is, co-inheritance with Christ of the kingdom, the new heaven and new earth.
But that was decided a thousand years earlier (at the first resurrection). The first resurrection occurs... then the thousand years occurs... then the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) and the judgment occurs. No one resurrected at the second resurrection reigns in the Kingdom for the thousand years with Christ (since that thousand years has already passed).
Ohhhhh, boy.


My point was pretty simple. Can anyone resurrected at the end of "the thousand years" reign with Christ in His Kingdom FOR "the thousand years"?


tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am Since you have previously likened the second death to the first death (which is described as a sleep, which is something we do while unconscious), I am not sure how you can then suggest that the second death is a conscious existence?
As I have said -- again, many times, but you purposely misconstrue here yet again; perhaps it is unintentional, but if it happens repetitively and is refuted repetitively, one has to wonder -- the death of the Bible is not woodenly physical but rather spiritual. The first death is the physical death, the second is a permanent spiritual death. I will say this, that the first and second deaths are similar in some ways, one being that neither is a cessation of existence. :)
I know there are different deaths referred to, but that does not mean that you are correct where you assign those meanings. But you had said the second death is like the first death... so I questioned your consistency.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
The answer to the second question is, of course, away from the new heaven and new earth and Christ Himself, outside the kingdom. Outside the camp, as in Leviticus 13:45-46 and Numbers 5:3-5 foreshadow.
So you think that there will be a "place" in existence for all eternity, where God is not present? Is not God said to eventually be all in all? (1Corinth 15:28)
Oh, God will be present, as He is present everywhere. I have said, countless times now, that God's
  • grace
is not present. God no longer dispenses grace, He dispenses only His judgment there (not to say that He "judges people over and over again"; His judgment has been rendered once and for all. And those who are there "live" in that judgment and under its consequences forever, which is a death.
Isn't death the last enemy, Pinseeker? Isn't death also destroyed?
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am Again, the verse in John does not state that some of the dead are resurrected to life and some of the dead are resurrected to eternal existence under judgment.
And so you're putting words in my mouth again, even right after you supposedly apologized for it.



Are these not your words:

I do believe that they exist forever under this judgement - Pinseeker

How could I have put words in your mouth when I simply repeated your own words?




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Re:

Post #962

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 am
tam wrote:If that is your reason for saying that of some of us, then you are doing the same thing. Because there is nothing in that verse which states that people who rise to judgment remain in existence for all time.
PinSeeker wrote:The word 'eternal' is right there, isn't it? And that means for eternity... of eternity... for the duration of eternity. There is no ambiguity.

Have you forgotten which verse was under discussion?
LOL! No. :) No, I've not forgotten, Tammy. I came back around to that at the end of my last post -- which I guess you know, you are just being... well, seem to be being, anyway... disingenuous. This conversation has become wide-ranging and maybe close to unwieldy, really. What I should have said was, only a rising to a resurrection, either to the right or left, is mentioned; absolutely nothing else is mentioned or implied. This was always the case. The lack of any mention of any event happening to the unrepentant after this rising to the resurrection of judgment is -- should be, anyway -- all that is necessary to dispel the myth of annihilation. Annihilation is not mentioned or implied, and therefore, if applied, is an egregious addition to the text. Further, since there is no mention beyond the resurrection, one can really only credibly assume that one remains in this basic risen to a resurrection state, regardless which resurrection one is risen to. The text is what it is, as I said: nothing more, and nothing less.

tam wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 am "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

Did you not state that people who believe in destruction (annihilation) are adding to what is written in this verse?
I did, because destruction -- which is not annihilation, but that's beside the immediate point, here -- is not in view here. Only the resurrection to the right or left is. See immediately above.

tam wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 am Well, neither is "eternal existence under judgment" written in this verse.
Yes, it absolutely is, because after resurrection -- again, either to the right or the left -- one exists and is living, in the wooden literal sense. The only question is whether one has true life (in and with Christ) or not... and my answer above is relevant again, because, as I said, since there is no mention of anything beyond the resurrection, one can really only credibly assume that one remains in this basic risen to a resurrection state, regardless which resurrection one is risen to. The text is what it is, as I said: nothing more, and nothing less.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
PinSeeker wrote:There is nothing written in the Bible that even insinuates annihilation, and in fact the opposite is true, especially in the concept of eternal punishment.
Tam wrote:This is not true.
PinSeeker wrote:Indeed it is true.
Tam wrote:You have been provided evidence of things in the bible which certainly do insinuate annihilation (destruction).
PinSeeker wrote:Yes, evidence without merit, and I have been very clear (as the Bible is) why.

You see, this is why I was content not to have this discussion yet again.
Okay, so why did you start it? Or why did you enter in to it? Nobody put a gun to your head or anything... did they??? :)

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm When it comes to 'that is not true'... 'yes it is true'... nothing more is being added to the discussion.
Agreed, but that's always what every debate that remains unresolved in the end -- finally -- comes down to, right? I mean, really, it does. Right? Aside from that, though, this comment is yet again disingenuous, because it seems to portray the conversation as devoid of substance, which is surely not the case.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
Tam wrote:Just because you do not accept those things, or dismiss them as having no meaning, does not mean that they do not exist.
PinSeeker wrote:I dismiss nothing. I refute it, because the Bible does. "These things" do not exist.

You dispute it. You cannot refute it, for reasons already stated.
But the reasons stated are deeply flawed, for the many Scriptural reasons I have stated here and elsewhere. This is another disingenuous comment, as if your "reasons" were incontrovertible or something (which they most assuredly were not). What you way here is mere opinion.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
PinSeeker wrote:When something is proclaimed as true, we can easily infer that it's opposite is not true. For example, Jesus says people are either for or against him, and by inference we can easily say that there is no neutral position. By the same token, Jesus says some are raised to life (those on his right in Matthew 25) and others are raised to judgement (those on his left in Matthew 25).
Tam wrote:Matt 25 (specifically the parable of the sheep and goats that you are referencing here) does not speak of a resurrection at all.
PinSeeker wrote:Right, the resurrection itself is not in view, as Jesus is speaking of the final Judgment, which takes place immediately after the second resurrection.
Tam wrote:By the standards you are using against some of us, this would mean that you are adding to what is written.
PinSeeker wrote:Absolutely not.

Then perhaps you should cease accusing some of us of doing this.
I will certainly cease doing that... if you quit doing it. :)

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
Tam wrote:The sheep and the goats parable does not include mention of a resurrection (because of course the sheep and the goats are the people of the nations who are alive at the time Christ returns).
PinSeeker wrote:LOL! Absolutely... well, wrong... incomplete. Included are those who are still alive at the time Jesus returns, but also included are all those who have previously died physically... all the nations. More on this in a moment. But to dispute this is far outside basic Biblical understanding.

Not wrong or even incomplete at all.
Well, yes, wrong, but incomplete in the light that the sheep and the goats are all people, those alive at the time of Christ's return, and those who have physically died but have just been resurrected (some to a resurrection of life, and some to a resurrection of judgment, in the words of John 5:29. This verse immediately follows verse 28, which says all who are in the tombs (if they are in their tombs, that means they have previously died) will hear Jesus's voice and come out. Saying the sheep and the goats are only those still alive at the time of Christ's return is not completely incorrect, but woefully incomplete, and thus still... incorrect. Frankly, I can't believe you are disputing this, but hey, you're your own person.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm There is no mention of a resurrection in the sheep and the goats parable. Surely you cannot state that this is false.
I've stated this many, many times. Wow. The resurrection, in relation to the time setting of the parable of the sheep and the goats -- has already happened and is not immediately in view.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
Tam wrote:There is also no mention of faith (in Christ) as being the reason that the sheep are invited in and the goats are cast out. Because faith is not the reason for the sheep being invited in or the goats being cast out. The reason the sheep are invited into the Kingdom is listed though: it is based upon their deeds (as mentioned in the parable); upon how they have unknowingly treated Christ.
PinSeeker wrote:Good works, those honored by God, are the result of faith.

.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."

.
These are people who do NATURALLY the requirements of the law (the law which is love), and these ones will also be declared righteous. Not based on their faith (they may or may not have faith). But based upon their deeds; their doing BY NATURE, the things required by the law (love).
Well, but this nature is not their original nature, Tammy. They naturally do the requirements of the law because their heart has been changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36). They have been born again of the Spirit, faith has been worked in them, and then the fruit of the Spirit -- love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, against which there is no law (Ephesians 5). God has made natural for them what once was not. Read again what Paul said just before that in Ephesians 2:
.
"And you (all of us) were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you (we) once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
.
I feel a "but" coming. Wait for it... WAIT FOR IT... :)
.
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you (we) have been saved -- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not your (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm (James) did not comment on works without faith.
No, and I didn't say he did. But the thrust of James 2:14-17 is that faith that is not accompanied by action is useless and dead, unable to save. James goes on to say, in verse 18, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." Good works -- works that God honors, considers good and not filthy rags -- are the consequence of salvation; they are the outward sign of a sincere and grateful faith.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm YOU are twisting his words to say something that he never said.
<chuckles> Nope. See immediately above.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm The parable of the sheep and the goats begins with the King coming in His glory, angels with Him, and sitting on His throne.
Oh, my. How long, Lord? How long? The parable of the sheep and the goats is about the Judgment, which occurs immediately upon Jesus's return.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm And what are you saying, anyway? That Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and they are changed in a twinkling... and then they come back down to the earth and are separated with the rest of the people of the nations? And they didn't realize that during their lifetimes that they had done good to Christ (by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), and they also did not know that they were going to be invited into the Kingdom that they were already a part of, having previously been caught up and changed to be with the Lord forever?

Makes no sense Pinseeker.
Well, that little ramble of yours certainly makes very little to no sense, I'm with you there... LOL! :D But of course, that's only a terrible misunderstanding -- and caricature -- of what I said. That seems to be a bad habit of yours... I'll repost, a little more fleshed out this time:
.
  • Over the course of the "thousand years" (which is not literally one thousand 365-day periods, but rather the fullness of God's time, in which he brings His Israel to full completion) people are being spiritually resurrected and reigning with Christ over the course of that "thousand years."

  • At the close of the millennium -- at the point that God has brought all Gentile believers into His Israel and subsequently removed the partial hardening (Romans 11) -- in short order:
    • Jesus returns, bringing with Him those who have previously died from this life (1 Thessalonians 4:14). Here, actually, I need to make an amendment. The second resurrection actually coincides with this event; the dead in Christ will be rise (be resurrected) first, and then those who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). In that way, all believers, those who have previously died and those who are still alive, will join Christ in His return. This is actually the ultimate fulfillment of Palm Sunday. Then the rest of the dead, those not in Christ, are raised and stand with those still alive who are not in Christ. In all this, Satan is finally defeated.
    • The Judgment (described in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20) occurs. All -- ALL -- are present for the Judgment -- the sheep on Jesus's right and the goats on Jesus's left -- and those on the left are sent away from the New Heaven and New Earth.
    • Eternity commences.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
PinSeeker wrote:The answer to the first question is, co-inheritance with Christ of the kingdom, the new heaven and new earth.
tam wrote:But that was decided a thousand years earlier (at the first resurrection). The first resurrection occurs... then the thousand years occurs... then the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) and the judgment occurs. No one resurrected at the second resurrection reigns in the Kingdom for the thousand years with Christ (since that thousand years has already passed).
PinSeeker wrote:Ohhhhh, boy.

My point was pretty simple.
Exactly the problem. To simple. Simplistic.

tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am Can anyone resurrected at the end of "the thousand years" reign with Christ in His Kingdom FOR "the thousand years"?
<sigh> Have you ever seen the drawing of the old hag? You know, a simple Google search will turn it up. That's how it may appear, but if you look at it a little closer, it's actually a fair young maiden with her head turned to the side rather than a portrait of an old hag. The point being, your question itself is irrelevant... a non sequitur. Try to see it like this, Tammy; give it a try: Deceased believers now (and DURING the entire "thousand years," which means the time from Pentecost to the second coming of Christ) are "reigning" with Christ from heaven. You're seeing it too simplistically. That doesn't mean you're lacking intellect or anything like that, but you're just seeing it too simplistically.

tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am Isn't death the last enemy, Pinseeker? Isn't death also destroyed?
Yes, there will be no more death -- or suffering or sorrow of any kind -- in the New Heaven and New Earth. Sorrow and sighing will flee away, in the words of Isaiah 35. When believers are finally resurrected from the dead, the defeat of death -- its destruction -- will be complete.

tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am How could I have put words in your mouth when I simply repeated your own words?
You didn't "simply repeat my own words. But... withdrawn, for your sake.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

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Re: Re:

Post #963

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

So as not to keep going around in circles, I am going to leave what I shared in my previous post about the sheep and the goats, as well as the mercy of God, to stand. I am also going to leave what I wrote about James (and his words regarding faith without works) to stand.
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:05 pm
tam wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 am
tam wrote:If that is your reason for saying that of some of us, then you are doing the same thing. Because there is nothing in that verse which states that people who rise to judgment remain in existence for all time.
PinSeeker wrote:The word 'eternal' is right there, isn't it? And that means for eternity... of eternity... for the duration of eternity. There is no ambiguity.

Have you forgotten which verse was under discussion?
LOL! No. :) No, I've not forgotten, Tammy.


Then why did you bring up the word 'eternal', saying that it is right there? That word is not in the verse under discussion.

“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.


What I should have said was, only a rising to a resurrection, either to the right or left, is mentioned; absolutely nothing else is mentioned or implied.


That (the part I bolded) is untrue.

There is no mention of a "rising to a resurrection".

There is mention of those who have done good rising to LIVE... and those who have done bad rising to be condemned.

(Some versions use "resurrection" instead of "rising"... some verses use "judgment" instead of "condemnation".)

But there is no "rising to a resurrection".

(There is also no mention of 'left or right'.)
This was always the case. The lack of any mention of any event happening to the unrepentant after this rising to the resurrection of judgment is -- should be, anyway -- all that is necessary to dispel the myth of annihilation. Annihilation is not mentioned or implied, and therefore, if applied, is an egregious addition to the text. Further, since there is no mention beyond the resurrection, one can really only credibly assume that one remains in this basic risen to a resurrection state, regardless which resurrection one is risen to. The text is what it is, as I said: nothing more, and nothing less.
This reasoning appears to be based at least in part upon a misreading of the text. Perhaps because you read this verse as a rising to resurrection? I do not know, but that is not what is written.

In addition to that, there IS mention of something (two things) beyond the resurrection:

Some are resurrected to LIFE. <- one thing

Some are resurrected to JUDGMENT. < - another thing

Life or Judgment (condemnation).

What that judgment (condemnation) is... is not specified in this verse.

tam wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 am "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

Did you not state that people who believe in destruction (annihilation) are adding to what is written in this verse?
I did, because destruction -- which is not annihilation, but that's beside the immediate point, here -- is not in view here. Only the resurrection to the right or left is. See immediately above.
There is no 'right or left' in this verse. Just as there is no right or left mentioned at the resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection in Rev 20:11-15)
tam wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 am Well, neither is "eternal existence under judgment" written in this verse.
Yes, it absolutely is, because after resurrection -- again, either to the right or the left -- one exists and is living, in the wooden literal sense.


None of that is written in this verse.
The only question is whether one has true life (in and with Christ) or not... and my answer above is relevant again, because, as I said, since there is no mention of anything beyond the resurrection, one can really only credibly assume that one remains in this basic risen to a resurrection state, regardless which resurrection one is risen to. The text is what it is, as I said: nothing more, and nothing less.
There are two things written beyond that resurrection: LIFE or JUDGEMENT

One is resurrected TO LIFE.

OR...

One is resurrected TO JUDGMENT.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
PinSeeker wrote:When something is proclaimed as true, we can easily infer that it's opposite is not true. For example, Jesus says people are either for or against him, and by inference we can easily say that there is no neutral position. By the same token, Jesus says some are raised to life (those on his right in Matthew 25) and others are raised to judgement (those on his left in Matthew 25).
Tam wrote:Matt 25 (specifically the parable of the sheep and goats that you are referencing here) does not speak of a resurrection at all.
PinSeeker wrote:Right, the resurrection itself is not in view, as Jesus is speaking of the final Judgment, which takes place immediately after the second resurrection.
Tam wrote:By the standards you are using against some of us, this would mean that you are adding to what is written.
PinSeeker wrote:Absolutely not.

Then perhaps you should cease accusing some of us of doing this.
I will certainly cease doing that... if you quit doing it. :)
Pinseeker, I never did that to begin with. All I have attempted to do in that regard is show you that you are doing the very thing you are accusing me (and others) of doing.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
Tam wrote:There is also no mention of faith (in Christ) as being the reason that the sheep are invited in and the goats are cast out. Because faith is not the reason for the sheep being invited in or the goats being cast out. The reason the sheep are invited into the Kingdom is listed though: it is based upon their deeds (as mentioned in the parable); upon how they have unknowingly treated Christ.
PinSeeker wrote:Good works, those honored by God, are the result of faith.

.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."

.
These are people who do NATURALLY the requirements of the law (the law which is love), and these ones will also be declared righteous. Not based on their faith (they may or may not have faith). But based upon their deeds; their doing BY NATURE, the things required by the law (love).
Well, but this nature is not their original nature, Tammy. They naturally do the requirements of the law because their heart has been changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36). They have been born again of the Spirit, faith has been worked in them, and then the fruit of the Spirit -- love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, against which there is no law (Ephesians 5). God has made natural for them what once was not. Read again what Paul said just before that in Ephesians 2:
Ephesians 2 is not 'just before that', Pinseeker. It is a different book altogether, written to a different group of people, and at a different time.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm And what are you saying, anyway? That Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and they are changed in a twinkling... and then they come back down to the earth and are separated with the rest of the people of the nations? And they didn't realize that during their lifetimes that they had done good to Christ (by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), and they also did not know that they were going to be invited into the Kingdom that they were already a part of, having previously been caught up and changed to be with the Lord forever?

Makes no sense Pinseeker.
Well, that little ramble of yours certainly makes very little to no sense, I'm with you there... LOL! :D But of course, that's only a terrible misunderstanding -- and caricature -- of what I said. That seems to be a bad habit of yours... I'll repost, a little more fleshed out this time:
Okay, but I do not see where you correct anything in the 'caricature'.
.
  • Over the course of the "thousand years" (which is not literally one thousand 365-day periods, but rather the fullness of God's time, in which he brings His Israel to full completion) people are being spiritually resurrected and reigning with Christ over the course of that "thousand years."

  • At the close of the millennium -- at the point that God has brought all Gentile believers into His Israel and subsequently removed the partial hardening (Romans 11) -- in short order:
    • Jesus returns, bringing with Him those who have previously died from this life (1 Thessalonians 4:14). Here, actually, I need to make an amendment. The second resurrection actually coincides with this event; the dead in Christ will be rise (be resurrected) first, and then those who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). In that way, all believers, those who have previously died and those who are still alive, will join Christ in His return. This is actually the ultimate fulfillment of Palm Sunday. Then the rest of the dead, those not in Christ, are raised and stand with those still alive who are not in Christ.
And then... according to your timeline.. these ones who are in Christ - who were caught up to Him in the sky upon His return, now "come back down to the earth and are separated with the rest of the people of the nations? And they didn't realize that during their lifetimes that they had done good to Christ (by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), and they also did not know that they were going to be invited into the Kingdom that they were already a part of, having just previously been caught up and changed to be with the Lord forever?"

How does that make sense?


(There is no mention of anyone who is living taking part in the resurrection of the dead and the subsequent judgment (from Rev 20:11-15). Only the dead: the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and hades gave up the dead in them Those "who are in their graves").

  • The Judgment (described in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20) occurs. All -- ALL -- are present for the Judgment -- the sheep on Jesus's right and the goats on Jesus's left -- and those on the left are sent away from the New Heaven and New Earth.
See above.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Re:

Post #964

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:22 amSo as not to keep going around in circles, I am going to leave what I shared in my previous post about the sheep and the goats, as well as the mercy of God, to stand. I am also going to leave what I wrote about James (and his words regarding faith without works) to stand.
Very well. The problem is, though, that what you said about those things does not stand, for the reasons thoroughly outlined above. You can dismiss that as mere opinion, and I have no doubt you will, but I'm fine with that. Like I said, your argument is -- really -- not with me.
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:22 amThere is no mention of a "rising to a resurrection". There is mention of those who have done good rising to LIVE... and those who have done bad rising to be condemned. (Some versions use "resurrection" instead of "rising"... some verses use "judgment" instead of "condemnation".) But there is no "rising to a resurrection".
Let me just quote our Lord, Christ Jesus, in John 5:28-29 again:
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"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
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So, they are in their tombs -- another way of saying they are dead -- and they hear and come out to a resurrection, either to the one of life or to the one of judgment. Granted, the hard term 'rise' or 'rising' is not used in John 5:28 or 5:29, but a resurrection necessarily involves a rising. Surely this cannot be denied. Surely. Wow. I mean, if I go out and walk on the ground in a beautiful green meadow, does that mean, since there was no hard mention of grass, that there was no grass? Or, if I say I went swimming in the cool lake, since there was no hard mention of water, that there was no water? Or -- this if kind of funny -- if I say I got out of bed one morning and went to the grocery store and bought food to eat, since there was no hard mention clothes that I went in my pajamas or even -- GASP -- naked? Or that since there was no hard mention of me actually driving, that I walked or crawled on my knees or flew? Uh... LOL!!! Sorry for the visual of a naked guy in the grocery... LOL!!! My goodness. Surely we can have a good laugh together and leave this here. Wow.
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:22 am(There is also no mention of 'left or right'.)
Again, not in John 5:28-29, specifically, but we know what happens upon the resurrection from Jesus as documented in Matthew 25, so we can easily put those together. Wow.
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:22 am...there IS mention of something (two things) beyond the resurrection: Some are resurrected to LIFE. <- one thing Some are resurrected to JUDGMENT. < - another thing Life or Judgment (condemnation). What that judgment (condemnation) is... is not specified in this verse.
Right, and what you're driving at -- yet again -- is death, but what I have said is that your understanding of it is egregiously in error. Do you want to go there again? We can if you want, but, well, what is it you have said several times recently about going in circles and not wanting to do that?
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:22 amThere is no 'right or left' in this verse (John 5:28-29). Just as there is no right or left mentioned at the resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection in Rev 20:11-15).
But these passages are the same event as (well, Revelation 20:11-15 is... John 5:28-29 is a description of what happens immediately preceding the event, as we can easily see from what Paul says about the coming of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4) what Jesus describes in Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 25:31:46, especially since He leads off that Matthew 25 passage with "When the Son of Man comes in his glory." Yet again... wow. Just... wow.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
Tam wrote:By the standards you are using against some of us, this would mean that you are adding to what is written.
PinSeeker wrote:Absolutely not.
tam wrote:Then perhaps you should cease accusing some of us of doing this.
PinSeeker wrote:I will certainly cease doing that... if you quit doing it. :)
Pinseeker, I never did that to begin with.
Well, like I have said several times, you didn't (and don't) mean to, for sure. But it is what it is.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pmAll I have attempted to do in that regard is show you that you are doing the very thing you are accusing me (and others) of doing.
Yes, attempted. You have. Quite unsuccessfully, though. :)
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pmEphesians 2 is not 'just before that', Pinseeker. It is a different book altogether, written to a different group of people, and at a different time.
Well good grief, Tammy, you can say that about any book if the Bible, pretty much. What's amazing is that the message is that the message is exactly the same, to all generations, past, present, and future. And that's because there really is only one Author, and that is God, via His Holy Spirit. Paul wrote well over half of what we know now as the New Testament, so that in and of itself is far more than just Ephesians, and he did not say something different to other groups of people at other times. Peter said the same things as Paul, not in Paul's exact words, but the same things. We can say the same thing about James and John and Jude. And we both know that all of these mentioned referenced -- extensively -- countless Old Testament passages. So, in the hard, cold sense, what you way is true, but that's actually a rock solid statement that the Bible is one concise, absolutely consistent message that has always, is now, and forever will be the same. Which is summed up by the following several verses, together and individually:
  • "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever." (Isaiah 40:8, quoted by Peter in 1 Peter 1:24)
  • "I the LORD do not change..." (Malachi 3:6)
  • "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16)
  • "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." (Hebrews 13:5)
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pmOkay, but I do not see where you correct anything in the 'caricature'.
Yes, for at least two reasons, 1.) that you just don't want to see, so you turn a blind eye to it, and 2.) that correction (and this is based on our long history together) at least right now is lost on you.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pmAnd then... according to your timeline.. these ones who are in Christ - who were caught up to Him in the sky upon His return, now "come back down to the earth and are separated with the rest of the people of the nations?
LOL! No, you're still not understanding... or purposely misstating. No matter; the separation is done when the resurrection of those who have died in Christ and those who are still alive in Christ go out to meet Him when he returns. This whole "process" -- Jesus's return and the going out of all those in Christ to meet Him in His return -- IS the final separation... of the sheep from the goats, also the wheat from the tares. My goodness.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pmAnd they didn't realize that during their lifetimes that they had done good to Christ (by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), and they also did not know that they were going to be invited into the Kingdom that they were already a part of, having just previously been caught up and changed to be with the Lord forever?" How does that make sense?
Give it just a bit of thought, Tammy. Here, I'll help (or do it for you, because that seems necessary). Just think about yourself, actually. When you do things for folks every day, are you always aware and even actively thinking about serving Jesus? I mean, you can say you know, or are aware, and that's sort of -- sort of -- true, but really, you're thinking about the person right in front of you and doing it for him/her. You're not thinking that person is actually Jesus, or regarding him/her as such. You may think, even consciously, of doing good FOR Christ, but not really -- not really -- TO Him. You will disagree with that, I'm sure, but it is what it is. You don't -- and I don't -- really look on others as God does, in His image, and in the case of Christians as Christ Himself, in the true love that only God (right now, of course) is capable of. We can't, in this life; because of sin, it's impossible. So, yes, we will be at least not fully aware (hashtag: understatement) at the Judgment of God's work in us and through us by His Spirit in this life.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pmThere is no mention of anyone who is livingl taking part in the resurrection of the dead and the subsequent judgment (from Rev 20:11-15). Only the dead: the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and hades gave up the dead in them Those "who are in their graves".
Oh, my. So I'll say this quickly and leave it to hang in the air for you. Again (how many times is this now?), all the dead, those in Christ, and those not in Christ. Again (how many times is this now?), all the dead (previously deceased from this life) will be resurrected, either to life or judgment.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
PinSeeker wrote:The Judgment (described in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20) occurs. All -- ALL -- are present for the Judgment -- the sheep on Jesus's right and the goats on Jesus's left -- and those on the left are sent away from the New Heaven and New Earth.[/list]
See above.
Sure, same to you. See above, indeed. And above, and above, and above, and above... :)

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

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Re: Re:

Post #965

Post by tam »

Peace to you,


First, you ignored the very first question I asked you in the previous post. I bring this up because it goes directly to the point that you keep making (even though you admit that it is an assumption).
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:05 pm
tam wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 am
tam wrote:If that is your reason for saying that of some of us, then you are doing the same thing. Because there is nothing in that verse which states that people who rise to judgment remain in existence for all time.
PinSeeker wrote:The word 'eternal' is right there, isn't it? And that means for eternity... of eternity... for the duration of eternity. There is no ambiguity.

Have you forgotten which verse was under discussion?
LOL! No. :) No, I've not forgotten, Tammy.


Then why did you bring up the word 'eternal', saying that it is right there? That word is not in the verse under discussion.

tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:22 amThere is no mention of a "rising to a resurrection". There is mention of those who have done good rising to LIVE... and those who have done bad rising to be condemned. (Some versions use "resurrection" instead of "rising"... some verses use "judgment" instead of "condemnation".) But there is no "rising to a resurrection".
Let me just quote our Lord, Christ Jesus, in John 5:28-29 again:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So, they are in their tombs -- another way of saying they are dead -- and they hear and come out to a resurrection, either to the one of life or to the one of judgment. Granted, the hard term 'rise' or 'rising' is not used in John 5:28 or 5:29, but a resurrection necessarily involves a rising. Surely this cannot be denied.


I did not deny it, Pinseeker. You can see in what you quoted from me that I said the words rising and resurrection are used interchangeably in this verse. Those in their graves do not rise to a resurrection. They rise (are resurrected) to life or they rise (are resurrected) to judgment.

You seem to have missed the point, which countered your claim that people are resurrected and nothing comes after that, therefore everyone remains resurrected. That is not correct. People are resurrected - to life or to judgment.
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:22 am(There is also no mention of 'left or right'.)
Again, not in John 5:28-29, specifically, but we know what happens upon the resurrection from Jesus as documented in Matthew 25, so we can easily put those together. Wow.
"WE" do not believe that happens. YOU believe this and so you connect those verses. My Lord has not taught me this though, so I do not believe it. Nor is there any mention of a resurrection of the sheep and the goats in the parable of the sheep and the goats; just as there is no mention of 'left or right' in the resurrection of the dead. This could be a hint to you (and others) that these are two separate and distinct events.

tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:22 am...there IS mention of something (two things) beyond the resurrection: Some are resurrected to LIFE. <- one thing Some are resurrected to JUDGMENT. < - another thing Life or Judgment (condemnation). What that judgment (condemnation) is... is not specified in this verse.
Right, and what you're driving at -- yet again -- is death,


No... what I was driving at (contrary to your claim that that nothing happens beyond the resurrection) is that something does occur beyond the resurrection: life or judgment/condemnation.
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:22 amThere is no 'right or left' in this verse (John 5:28-29). Just as there is no right or left mentioned at the resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection in Rev 20:11-15).
But these passages are the same event as (well, Revelation 20:11-15 is... John 5:28-29 is a description of what happens immediately preceding the event, as we can easily see from what Paul says about the coming of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4) what Jesus describes in Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 25:31:46, especially since He leads off that Matthew 25 passage with "When the Son of Man comes in his glory." Yet again... wow. Just... wow.
Revelation 20:11-15 is referring to God (the Father), the Ancient of Days. Matthew 25 is referring to the return of Christ (the Son). Again, these are two separate events, with 'a thousand years' in between them. I know you do not accept that, but I wish to be clear for the sake of the reader (and yours as well, in case that was not clear before).


tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
Tam wrote:By the standards you are using against some of us, this would mean that you are adding to what is written.
PinSeeker wrote:Absolutely not.
tam wrote:Then perhaps you should cease accusing some of us of doing this.
PinSeeker wrote:I will certainly cease doing that... if you quit doing it. :)
Pinseeker, I never did that to begin with.
Well, like I have said several times, you didn't (and don't) mean to, for sure. But it is what it is.
That doesn't make any sense, Pinseeker.
But perhaps you realize that you are doing the thing you accuse me (and others) of doing, and so that is what you see.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pmEphesians 2 is not 'just before that', Pinseeker. It is a different book altogether, written to a different group of people, and at a different time.
Well good grief, Tammy, you can say that about any book if the Bible, pretty much. What's amazing...
What is amazing to me is that you can accuse me (and others) of adding to what is written because we understand other passages as helping to reveal what 'judgment' is; and yet you take something from an entirely different book to help form your belief of what is written, and yet we are adding to scripture and you are not.
is that the message is that the message is exactly the same, to all generations, past, present, and future. And that's because there really is only one Author, and that is God, via His Holy Spirit. Paul wrote well over half of what we know now as the New Testament, so that in and of itself is far more than just Ephesians, and he did not say something different to other groups of people at other times. Peter said the same things as Paul, not in Paul's exact words, but the same things. We can say the same thing about James and John and Jude. And we both know that all of these mentioned referenced -- extensively -- countless Old Testament passages. So, in the hard, cold sense, what you way is true, but that's actually a rock solid statement that the Bible is one concise, absolutely consistent message that has always, is now, and forever will be the same.

Not everything in the bible is written to all people at all time. Some things are specific to specific people, specific actions, specific time period.

Regardless, this does not mean that people (of the nations) doing the requirements of the law BY NATURE is the same thing that Paul is referring to in Ephesians 2. Paul is simply making the point (in Romans) that some people (of the nations) do NATURALLY the requirements of the law (which is love), making them a law unto themselves.


Do you think (I don't know why I ask the question because obviously you do think) that a person who forgives his enemies, who gives to the poor, loves his neighbor as himself, who shows mercy, who has done good to Christ (unknowingly), having done good to even a least one of His brothers (knowingly or not)... that this person is going to be cast into 'the outer darkness' and receive eternal condemnation simply because they are not Christian?

Because that goes against what Christ has said in the very parable of the sheep and the goats! That goes against what Christ said when He said "Be merciful and mercy will be shown you."

The point about the sheep and the goats and how they unknowingly treat Christ, is similar to what the author of Hebrews said about not forgetting to show hospitality to strangers, because some have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. Hebrews 13:2

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pmAnd then... according to your timeline.. these ones who are in Christ - who were caught up to Him in the sky upon His return, now "come back down to the earth and are separated with the rest of the people of the nations?
LOL! No, you're still not understanding... or purposely misstating. No matter; the separation is done when the resurrection of those who have died in Christ and those who are still alive in Christ go out to meet Him when he returns. This whole "process" -- Jesus's return and the going out of all those in Christ to meet Him in His return -- IS the final separation... of the sheep from the goats, also the wheat from the tares. My goodness.
That is not what is written. So I'm just going to leave my comments as they stand.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pmAnd they didn't realize that during their lifetimes that they had done good to Christ (by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), and they also did not know that they were going to be invited into the Kingdom that they were already a part of, having just previously been caught up and changed to be with the Lord forever?" How does that make sense?
Give it just a bit of thought, Tammy. Here, I'll help (or do it for you, because that seems necessary). Just think about yourself, actually. When you do things for folks every day, are you always aware and even actively thinking about serving Jesus?


If I do something for another person out of a selfish reason, then no, I am then thinking of myself (and I should not be doing that).

But if I am doing something for someone because of my Lord's words and commands (including 'whatever you do for even a least one of my brothers'), because I love Him, then yes, I am actively thinking about serving my Lord. And I certainly know that if I do something for one of my brothers or sisters in my Lord, that I am doing this for my Lord.

My Lord is always in my heart, and He is often the One who directs me to someone in need (someone hungry, someone hurting, etc)... so yeah, absolutely I am aware and actively thinking about serving Him.

Regardless, the words of the King in the parable are:

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

(and are not Christians among the brothers and sisters of Christ?)


And I am going to repeat it, though you do not accept it, faith (in Christ) is not mentioned as a reason that the sheep are invited in. The sheep are invited in on the basis of their deeds - their deeds reveal what is in them (in this case, love). Because those deeds (that the sheep perform) are deeds that come from love.
I mean, you can say you know, or are aware, and that's sort of -- sort of -- true, but really, you're thinking about the person right in front of you and doing it for him/her. You're not thinking that person is actually Jesus, or regarding him/her as such. You may think, even consciously, of doing good FOR Christ, but not really -- not really -- TO Him. You will disagree with that, I'm sure, but it is what it is.
You are making an arbitrary distinction (the bold), in a seeming effort to avoid the truth.

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

It does not matter if you use the word 'for' or 'to'.

The point is that whatever one does to (or for) one of the least of His brothers, one has done to (or for) Him.

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pmThere is no mention of anyone who is livingl taking part in the resurrection of the dead and the subsequent judgment (from Rev 20:11-15). Only the dead: the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and hades gave up the dead in them Those "who are in their graves".
Oh, my. So I'll say this quickly and leave it to hang in the air for you. Again (how many times is this now?), all the dead, those in Christ, and those not in Christ. Again (how many times is this now?), all the dead (previously deceased from this life) will be resurrected, either to life or judgment.
Yeah I don't know what that has to do with my comment. No one living takes part in the resurrection of the dead and the subsequent judgment.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #966

Post by tam »

Peace to you all,

The following is a link to a post which contains a summary of links to many of our previous discussion about eternal torment; hell; annihilation; the thousand years; etc. Just in case anyone wishes to read through those previous comments and discussions.


viewtopic.php?p=1019280#p1019280


(Just a note: I had to fix some of the links in those posts, and that is the only reason that those posts will say that they have been edited from today, Nov 25th. I did not add or change any of the content in those posts).

Peace again to you all.

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Re: Re:

Post #967

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:11 pm First, you ignored the very first question I asked you in the previous post. I bring this up because it goes directly to the point that you keep making (even though you admit that it is an assumption).
Right, because I had already answered it and you were asking it again. I bring this up because you seem to ask the same things over and over again hoping you'll get the "answer" you want to hear. I will say this, though: I think regarding the word 'eternal,' there's been a simple misunderstanding between us. Looking at my post 959 at the very first part where I made the statement that the word 'eternal' was "right there," I was speaking specifically to Matthew 25:46. And that was after the connection I had made between John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:31-42, the connection being not that they describe the exact same event but that one immediately follows the other. John 5:28-29 is about the resurrection, and Matthew 25:31-46 is about the Judgment; the Judgment immediately follows the resurrection.

Having said that, though, Jesus's return, the defeat of Satan, the resurrection of the dead, the Judgment, the sending away of those on Jesus's left, and finally heaven and earth being made new, and the consummation of the kingdom... it is all one big Event. We put the study of the end times all under one heading, don't we? Eschatology, right? The "sub-events" are successive and distinctive events in and of themselves, but what happens at the close of the millennium is one big Event. We can think of it in much the same way as a football game, an event, consists of four distinct lesser events called quarters (and possibly overtime), or as a baseball game, an event, consists of 9 (or possibly more) successive lesser events called innings. :)
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:11 pm You seem to have missed the point, which countered your claim that people are resurrected and nothing comes after that, therefore everyone remains resurrected. That is not correct. People are resurrected - to life or to judgment.
Nope. Didn't miss any point, Tammy. Yes, after the resurrection, all experience either life or judgment eternally -- for eternity. John 5:29 stops there. There is nothing after that regarding what happens to those resurrected, and specifically regarding the ones having come out to the resurrection of judgment either that they are "un-resurrected" or that any sort of annihilation takes place for anyone. To think otherwise is to at least inadvertently add to scripture something unscriptural.
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:11 pm "WE" do not believe that happens.
When I said "we," I did not mean, specifically you and me. It was a ubiquitous "we." Yes, we all should, but some don't. As for you, specifically, I know all too well what you (mistakenly) believe.
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:11 pm Revelation 20:11-15 is referring to God (the Father), the Ancient of Days. Matthew 25 is referring to the return of Christ (the Son). Again, these are two separate events, with 'a thousand years' in between them. I know you do not accept that, but I wish to be clear for the sake of the reader (and yours as well, in case that was not clear before).
Oh yes, your misunderstanding is painfully clear to me. No, Revelation 20:11-15 and Matthew 25:31-46 describe the same event, the final Judgment. The "thousand years" has already happened and been brought to a close at the point of the Judgment, the time described earlier in Revelation 20 as the period over the course of which they -- the martyrs and those who had worshiped only God, whom He had "marked" -- came to life and reigned with Christ (Revelation 20:4), and in Matthew by Jesus Himself, initiating it by telling his disciples and us to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that He has commanded us, and then even promising to be with us for all this time, even to the end of the age (Matthew 28:19-20).
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:11 pm Do you think (I don't know why I ask the question because obviously you do think) that a person who forgives his enemies, who gives to the poor, loves his neighbor as himself, who shows mercy, who has done good to Christ (unknowingly), having done good to even a least one of His brothers (knowingly or not)... that this person is going to be cast into 'the outer darkness' and receive eternal condemnation simply because they are not Christian?
This is interesting. I mean, the only relevant part of that little rant is "because they are not Christian." If they are not heart-regenerate, not born again of the Spirit, then they are not Christian, and they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus is clear about that in John 3. But more specifically to your question, I think -- and it's quite ridiculous not to think -- that it's very possible for someone to do good things, even things like forgiving enemies, giving to the poor, loving his neighbor, showing mercy, even unknowingly to do good for Christ, or doing good to even the least one of His brothers, and to remain unsaved. These things do not make them eligible for the kingdom of God in and of themselves or even all together. The issue is still the heart, and whether what they have done is in faith and in Christ... or not. As we know (there I go again saying "we"), God works all things -- all things -- together for our good, so God can use even unrepentant and unsaved people to accomplish the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Yes, it's possible that one could do all of these things and still be cast into the outer darkness and receive eternal condemnation. All people are judged by their works, not saved by them; it's still an issue of the heart... and God-given (or God-withheld, in the case of the wicked) faith.
tam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:11 pm And I am going to repeat it, though you do not accept it, faith (in Christ) is not mentioned as a reason that the sheep are invited in. The sheep are invited in on the basis of their deeds...
Actually, I do accept this (I've never said otherwise). But as I said, being born again of the Spirit and given faith is the root of it. Our works can only be considered "good" if God deems them so, because there is no real good except for God, as Jesus Himself said. If there is no faith underlying works, then good or bad, those works in and of themselves are as filthy rags to Him. But if this new birth of the Spirit happens and if faith is worked in the person as a result, then the person's good works are the natural outpouring from this faith and are thus accepted and honored by God, because they glorify Him. Read Ephesians 2 again (and again and again, if necessary, which it seems is the case):
  • "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved -- and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Again, as Paul told the Philippians:
  • "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (1:6)
and:
  • "...it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (2:13)
This conversation is all over the place. :) But that's a good thing, I guess... :D

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tam
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Re: Re:

Post #968

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #968]

I do not think that you presented anything new to respond to, and so I will leave my previous posts in this thread (and the other thread which I linked to), to stand as they are. You may say what you will about that, but if a reader is interested, they can read those posts for themselves.

If of course there is something specific that you (or someone else) thinks has not been responded to, and you (or someone else) wants a response, then please highlight it and let me know. If I am able to respond, I will.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #969

Post by onewithhim »

Hard to believe, but November is done! Didn't we just start it?? LOL!

Well, our special campaign to notify as many people as we can about God's Kingdom is brought to a close. Hopefully many people have learned that the Kingdom is a real government that will rule over the earth with Christ as King. Each person I asked if they would read the special magazine said that they would. :D

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #970

Post by heistrue »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:54 am JESUS &144,000 RULERS = GOD'S KINGDOM GOVERNMENT

Image

Revelations won wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:17 am
You claim this kingdom was started in 1914 and how many of these 144,000 have been selected during this period of well over 100 years?
I do not know, that is well outside of my jurisdiction. Indeed Jesus indicated such matters laid firmly in the hands of JEHOVAH, the Father. Of course we can speculate (for example using the number of individuals that partake of the emblems during the annual memorial of Christ's death, but that is an imperfect barometer at best). At the end of the day I am content that if God hasn't provided us with such specific information it is not something we need to know for salvation.
MATTHEW 20:23

He [Jesus] said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
That said for many decades now, the majority of true Christians on earth claim not to be of that number and given how close we are to the time when all Christ's brothers will need to be at his side to fight the final battle of Armageddon, it is not unreasonable to assume that most of them are already in heaven. No one on earth can say more than that.



JW



FURTHER READING: Who goes to heaven?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/




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oops sorry wrong stats here are the relevant stats on JWs;
Jehovah's Witnesses is a millenarian restorationist Christian denomination with nontrinitarian beliefs distinct from mainstream Christianity. The group reports a worldwide membership of approximately 8.69 million adherents involved in evangelism and an annual Memorial attendance of over 17 million
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HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000
[/quote]
,, lol so why be a JW today or even in the future, look at the stats ; As of 2018, the world's "core" Jewish population, those identifying as Jews above all else, was 14.6 million. The "connected" Jewish population, including those who say they are partly Jewish or that have Jewish background from at least a single Jewish parent, in addition to the core Jewish population, was 17.8 million.
so if the so called 144,000 are already there why bother to join them now..the kingdom is full 10 times over.....

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