The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[JehovahsWitness]

3. The Apostle Paul explained the symbology of Mount Zion

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

Sounds like heaven to me.

However, that still doesn't, in my opinion, automatically mean that the 144k will reside in heaven, as this is not what scriptures state.

Fair enough.






JW

[William]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1081]
Venom, I understand your point. There just has been a hang-up over the word "citizenship." What you think about some of us living on Earth forever and some in heaven (as we believe) is correct.

I think that the whole idea is appealing because I also think that what a person believes in this phase determines what they will experience in the next phase.

For me personally, the idea of being in any one of the heavens or being on just one planet forever, is not appealing, because it restricts my freedom of movement and I want to observe all that there is to observe, and at will - to learn as much as I can about all that there is.

I can't do that if I am dead to any experience, any more than if I were only alive to the options of heavens or a solitary planet, "forever and ever amen".

Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

[We_Are_VENOM]

3. The Apostle Paul explained the symbology of Mount Zion

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

Sounds like heaven to me.

However, that still doesn't, in my opinion, automatically mean that the 144k will reside in heaven, as this is not what scriptures state.

Fair enough.


JW

Selective quoting. Very selective. Next level selective.

[tam]

Peace to you,

However, that still doesn't, in my opinion, automatically mean that only 144k will reside in heaven, as this is not what scriptures state.

It is a non sequitur..

1. The Bible states that 144k will be redeemed from earth (Rev 14:3).

2. Therefore, only 144k will be in heaven.

The conclusion simply does not follow from the premise.

That conclusion does not follow the premise, correct.

If I may help clarify a couple of things though:

The 144k (12K each from twelve tribes of Israel) do not reside in heaven. They will have access to both the physical and spiritual realms (as Adam did at the start, and as you sounded like you were getting at earlier in the discussion). But the 144k (which is part of the Great Crowd from every tribe, nation, people and tongue, that John saw, all from Rev 7) and the rest of the Great Crowd make up the City that is New Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is not a city of houses, stone, streets, etc. New Jerusalem is a City made of people (Christians/anointed ones), who come down out of heaven and reign upon the earth (with Christ for at least a thousand years).

New Jerusalem is the Bride who comes down out of heaven and reigns upon the earth, and the Bride is the Church (Christians/anointed ones).


**

As for being redeemed from the earth... that doesn't mean they are vacated from the earth. It means these ones (12K from each of twelve tribes of Israel) from the earth, have been bought/redeemed.

and they sing, as it were, a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures, and the elders, and no one was able to learn the song except the hundred forty-four thousands, who have been bought from the earth;



May anyone who wishes them be granted ears to hear, so as to hear the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[We_Are_VENOM]

That conclusion does not follow the premise, correct.

Which is the theme song of conversing with JW's.

If I may help clarify a couple of things though:

Ahhh yes, tam. It is always a great pleasure for you to grace us with your POV.

And if I am not speaking for "us", I am certainly speaking for myself.

The 144k (12K each from twelve tribes of Israel) do not reside in heaven. They will have access to both the physical and spiritual realms (as Adam did at the start, and as you sounded like you were getting at earlier in the discussion).

Hmm.

But the 144k (which is part of the Great Crowd from every tribe, nation, people and tongue, that John saw, all from Rev 7) and the rest of the Great Crowd make up the City that is New Jerusalem.

And my point is, can this New Jerusalem be considered "heaven", considering the fact that this is where God will dwell with man (Rev 21:1-3).

New Jerusalem is not a city of houses, stone, streets, etc. New Jerusalem is a City made of people (Christians/anointed ones), who come down out of heaven and reign upon the earth (with Christ for at least a thousand years).

Hmm. There are some problems there; according to scripture, the thousand year reign comes first (Rev 20), and THEN comes the New Jerusalem (Rev 21).

The thousand year reign comes before even judgement , according to scripture.

New Jerusalem is the Bride who comes down out of heaven and reigns upon the earth, and the Bride is the Church (Christians/anointed ones).

2 brides?

As for being redeemed from the earth... that doesn't mean they are vacated from the earth. It means these ones (12K from each of twelve tribes of Israel) from the earth, have been bought/redeemed.

Meaning what, exactly? "The devil is in the details", as they say (no pun intended).

We know that 144k were sealed from the tribulation..the question is; what does that seal entails?

But then again, if they were "taken away" from earth, then I guess that there would be no point in sealing them.

So maybe I answered my own question.

and they sing, as it were, a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures, and the elders, and no one was able to learn the song except the hundred forty-four thousands, who have been bought from the earth;

May anyone who wishes them be granted ears to hear, so as to hear the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."

Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

And also, it just occurred to me; Paul said our citizenship is in heaven (Phil 3:20), and it makes sense if the saved will be residing in a city (Holy City).

"Citizens of a holy city, which Paul identifies as HEAVEN".

It all flows together.

[onewithhim]

Venom, I understand your point. There just has been a hang-up over the word "citizenship."

Why, I dont know.

Lets not forget lone wolf, too.

What you think about some of us living on Earth forever and some in heaven (as we believe) is correct.

I don't think the Jehovah's Witness view here is an accurate depiction of Biblical truth.

But I must confesses though, after having these recent discussions on the subject, I can understand why JW's believe that the 144k will be in heaven...which is what I assume to be based on the 144k's "redemption" from earth.

I just found that out after researching Revelations in light of the discussions we are having on here.

Before that, I saw no Biblical basis whatsoever for this.

However, that still doesn't, in my opinion, automatically mean that only 144k will reside in heaven, as this is not what scriptures state.

It is a non sequitur..

1. The Bible states that 144k will be redeemed from earth (Rev 14:3).

2. Therefore, only 144k will be in heaven.

The conclusion simply does not follow from the premise.

I understand we all have our beliefs when it comes to God's word, but when you turn those beliefs into Biblical doctrine, that is where things turn thick and foggy.

But when your church is going out in the public proclaiming "We are the truth, and to leave us is to leave the truth", then I guess such humbleness goes down the drain.

Did Jesus' humility go down the drain when he said, "I am the way and the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me,"? (John 14:6)

.Those are pretty strong words, directing people to God through himself. Jehovah's Witnesses take such a strong stand. We believe that Jesus is directing our work here on Earth, so we feel that we can make such a statement as "we are the truth." People's lives are involved, so it's important to get their attention and steer them in the right direction.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1081]
Venom, I understand your point. There just has been a hang-up over the word "citizenship." What you think about some of us living on Earth forever and some in heaven (as we believe) is correct.

I think that the whole idea is appealing because I also think that what a person believes in this phase determines what they will experience in the next phase.

For me personally, the idea of being in any one of the heavens or being on just one planet forever, is not appealing, because it restricts my freedom of movement and I want to observe all that there is to observe, and at will - to learn as much as I can about all that there is.

I can't do that if I am dead to any experience, any more than if I were only alive to the options of heavens or a solitary planet, "forever and ever amen".

Then where do you want to be?

[William]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1081]
Venom, I understand your point. There just has been a hang-up over the word "citizenship." What you think about some of us living on Earth forever and some in heaven (as we believe) is correct.

I think that the whole idea is appealing because I also think that what a person believes in this phase determines what they will experience in the next phase.

For me personally, the idea of being in any one of the heavens or being on just one planet forever, is not appealing, because it restricts my freedom of movement and I want to observe all that there is to observe, and at will - to learn as much as I can about all that there is.

I can't do that if I am dead to any experience, any more than if I were only alive to the options of heavens or a solitary planet, "forever and ever amen".

Then where do you want to be?

Wherever I feel like being for whatever purpose I think is useful for being there. Certainly not stuck in some heaven or on one planet.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Did Jesus' humility go down the drain when he said, "I am the way and the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me,"? (John 14:6)

.Those are pretty strong words, directing people to God through himself. Jehovah's Witnesses take such a strong stand. We believe that Jesus is directing our work here on Earth, so we feel that we can make such a statement as "we are the truth."

Well, certainly anyone can say anything...but what does the Bible say??

All I know is; in John 14:6, Jesus is directing the traffic to and through HIM, not through and to the Watchtower and Tract Society.

I believe that Jesus is directing my apologetic work, but I am not going around saying "I am the truth".

No, never.

And that is the problem.

People's lives are involved, so it's important to get their attention and steer them in the right direction.

I agree. But you dont steer them in the right direction by giving them false information.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to William in post #1099]
So where would you be while you are considering where you want to be?