tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
how can you say that some of us have added to what is written in that verse?
Because by believing in something else that happens to those raised to the resurrection of judgment -- specifically, annihilation -- those in question are adding something to the description of what happens to those raised to this resurrection of judgment beyond what is written. They don't mean to do that, and may not even be aware of it, really, but that is the effect. There is nothing written in the Bible that even insinuates annihilation, and in fact the opposite is true, especially in the concept of eternal punishment.
tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
Must disagree for reasons stated.
Sure you do. But those reasons are flawed, as previously stated. And contrived, really, although possibly not by you. I'm surely not accusing you of anything.
tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
When something is proclaimed as true, we can easily infer that it's opposite is not true. For example, Jesus says people are either for or against him, and by inference we can easily say that there is no neutral position. By the same token, Jesus says some are raised to life (those on his right in Matthew 25) and others are raised to judgement (those on his left in Matthew 25).
Matt 25 (specifically the parable of the sheep and goats that you are referencing here) does not speak of a resurrection at all.
Right, the resurrection itself is not in view, as Jesus is speaking of the final Judgment, which takes place immediately after the second resurrection.
tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
Or do you not believe that when He returns, there will be people on the earth who are yet living?
Of course I do. Some will join those on Jesus's right, and the others will join those on Jesus's left. Not sure of the purpose of this question, but no matter.
tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
And He says all tombs, which means there is no other possibility. So all are raised, to one or the other, and we can easily infer that annihilation is not a third possibility.
He does say all tombs, yes. But just because a person is resurrected does not mean that a person remains in that state for all eternity.
Yes, fair enough, but there is nothing -- nothing -- in the Bible to indicate, either implicitly or explicitly, that anything beyond being raised to the resurrection of judgment happens to those on Jesus's left, and, as stated many times now, the indisputable fact that this punishment is eternal explicitly indicates existence in this eternal punishment. To say otherwise is much as if to say that when I used to punish my son for something he did way back when (when he was a kid), he was not really present for that punishment and did not therefore endure it, which is just -- frankly -- absurd.
tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
Some are resurrected to life (eternal life); and some are resurrected to judgment (condemnation).
Sure. See above.
tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
So what are they judged/condemned TO?
That question itself needs to be redirected. The more appropriate questions are:
- 1. What are they excluded FROM?
- 2, Where are they then relegated to in order to endure this judgment/condemnation?
The answer to the first question is, co-inheritance with Christ of the kingdom, the new heaven and new earth. I know, I know, you want me to say eternal life, so you can present yet again the dichotomy between that and eternal death, which means -- to you (and others) -- eternal non-existence and thus annihilation. But this is not what "eternal death" is. Eternal death is eternal separation from Christ in a place (symbolized by a lake and described figuratively as a place of outer darkness and of extreme sorrow and anguish -- weeping and gnashing of teeth) where God dispenses no grace, where only His judgment (symbolized by fire), having been rendered once and for all, remains. This death is not a wiping from existence or taking away of consciousness for any length of time, much less for eternity. This death is an eternal existence under the effect of the final Judgment, the "fire" that is unquenchable, "their worm that never dies."
The answer to the second question is, of course, away from the new heaven and new earth and Christ Himself, outside the kingdom. Outside the camp, as in Leviticus 13:45-46 and Numbers 5:3-5 foreshadow.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
Condemned to what?
See the answer to question two above. Jesus says, in Luke 13, in a question regarding the number of people who are/will be saved and if that number is small, "...many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth..." Again, nothing about any wiping from existence, and inferentially quite the opposite.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
PinSeeker wrote:
- "...if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly..." 2 Peter 2:6
- "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7
Peter and Jude both see the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah as a "type" (a diving foreshadowing) of judgment by fire on the last day. The Old Testament is filled with types and shadows of ultimate realities to come, and the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 is one of them. The permanent and irrevocable judgment pronounced upon the people of Sodom and Gomorrah is what is foreshadowing of eternity, not the literal razing of the cities.
Pinseeker, why not both?
Because the types/foreshadowings in the Old Testament are not literal with regard to the ultimate fulfillments. As I said, the example of the literal razing of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah is meant to show the permanence of God's final Judgment of and upon those who are unrepentant of their sin.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
Tam wrote:"And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." Matt 10:28
PinSeeker wrote:As I said to Checkpoint above, the word "destroy" is in the Greek ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi), and it means in the context here not to be annihilated physically or wiped from existence, but rather to be brought to ruin spiritually. Paul and James use the same word in the same way, and Peter and Jude, too. And what we see from Paul, Peter, and even John in Revelation regarding "destruction" as rendered in English (ἀπώλεια, or apōleia, in the Greek) is very much the same, but in the form of a noun rather than a verb.
Here is the meaning of the word...
I well know the meaning of the word, Tammy, and I know too (as you should, and do, I think) that depending on the context where the word is found, it has different meanings. Congruent meanings, but different in scope. What I said above stands.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
So nothing that has been shared (about annihilation, destruction) conflicts with what is written.
So yes, what you have shared surely regarding annihilation and destruction surely
does conflict with what is written in the specific passages I have related.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
Tam wrote:(See also Rev 20:9, because fire comes down from God from heaven and devours 'gog and magog'; and the meaning of the word translated as "devour" includes "utterly consume; destroy, by fire"...
PinSeeker wrote:Yes, actually, God Himself is the consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24, and in Revelation 20:9, Jesus). This is talking about God's final Judgment. It is final, inescapable, irrevocable, and everlasting.
Well, utter consumption; destruction sounds irrevocable and everlasting to me.
Absolutely. Did I not just say this here, as well as many a time previously? But as I have said, the consumption and destruction is not to be understood as a wiping from existence entirely or annihilation, but rather spiritual ruin, which on its face may sound trivial but most assuredly is not.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
PinSeeker wrote:This is true of all those who believe in annihilation: reading something into it that is neither said nor implied in any way, which should not be done, not necessarily because I say so, but because Jesus Himself warns against it in Revelation 22: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book..." [22:18]
A - God's Word is Christ.
LOL! Well yeah, that's right. Absolutely. God's Word made man... personified. From Genesis 1 to Revelation 22.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
B - no one added to the verse from John (as I think you admitted at the top of this post, right?)
Well, again, not consciously or intentionally, but that is most definitely the effect.
tam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
tam wrote:Second, if you are saying that some of us are 'adding' to what is written, then how would you not be doing the same? Because the verse in John does not state that some of the dead are resurrected to life, and some of the dead are resurrected to eternal life under judgment.
PinSeeker wrote:But that's not what I said; you're putting words in my mouth, which is not cool.
I apologize. You do not believe that that they live forever under judgment then?
Apology accepted. But -- no offense intended here, of course -- this question itself is oxymoronic in nature. I do believe that they
exist forever under this judgement (as the Bible effectually says), but this is not life, it is death. Which brings me back yet again to the statement that I have made many times in response to statements from many posters on this forum (and elsewhere) in many threads (in many conversations): many people misunderstand what death really is in the Bible. They misunderstand what the death people experience as a result of being on the wrong side of the Judgment (on Jesus's left) really is.
Grace and peace to you.