The kingdom of God.

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Checkpoint
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The kingdom of God.

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:
Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.
So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

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onewithhim
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #1081

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1081]
Venom, I understand your point. There just has been a hang-up over the word "citizenship." What you think about some of us living on Earth forever and some in heaven (as we believe) is correct.

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #1082

Post by 2timothy316 »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:52 am
Checkpoint wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:00 pm
Why bother trying to do that here?

This is, after all, a debating site, not a JW or other groups correcting site, isn't it?
You dont think a debate will come as a result of me correcting them?
LOL
As if there have not been countless threads, entire websites, paper books, and countless videos trying to correct JWs. You think you've got something new that we JWs and the whole world hasn't thought of before? I roll my eyes at all of these apostate lies and don't give them the time of day. I have heard it all and debunked it all. I'm not going to spend one more second trying to correct those that think they can correct the Jehovah's Witnesses. Welcome to my ignore list.

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We_Are_VENOM
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #1083

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 am LOL
As if there have not been countless threads, entire websites, paper books, and countless videos trying to correct JWs. You think you've got something new that we JWs and the whole world hasn't thought of before? I roll my eyes at all of these apostate lies and don't give them the time of day. I have heard it all and debunked it all. I'm not going to spend one more second trying to correct those that think they can correct the Jehovah's Witnesses. Welcome to my ignore list.
Me going to your ignore list came much too late.

:wave:
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We_Are_VENOM
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #1084

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:39 am Venom, I understand your point. There just has been a hang-up over the word "citizenship."
Why, I dont know.

Lets not forget lone wolf, too. :D
What you think about some of us living on Earth forever and some in heaven (as we believe) is correct.
I don't think the Jehovah's Witness view here is an accurate depiction of Biblical truth.

But I must confesses though, after having these recent discussions on the subject, I can understand why JW's believe that the 144k will be in heaven...which is what I assume to be based on the 144k's "redemption" from earth.

I just found that out after researching Revelations in light of the discussions we are having on here.

Before that, I saw no Biblical basis whatsoever for this.

However, that still doesn't, in my opinion, automatically mean that only 144k will reside in heaven, as this is not what scriptures state.

It is a non sequitur..

1. The Bible states that 144k will be redeemed from earth (Rev 14:3).

2. Therefore, only 144k will be in heaven.

The conclusion simply does not follow from the premise.

I understand we all have our beliefs when it comes to God's word, but when you turn those beliefs into Biblical doctrine, that is where things turn thick and foggy.

But when your church is going out in the public proclaiming "We are the truth, and to leave us is to leave the truth", then I guess such humbleness goes down the drain.
Last edited by We_Are_VENOM on Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #1085

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:09 am



1. The Bible states that 144k will be redeemed from earth (Rev 14:3).

2. Therefore, only 144k will be in heaven.

The conclusion simply does not follow from the premise.

So if the 144k are redeemed from the earth*. And they are NOT redeemed to heaven... where are they? In short if they are not on earth and they are not in heaven* then where are they taken to?

* If we take heaven to be the spiritual realm where God presently abodes (lives) and earth to mean this our physical carbon based planet on which humans and animals live
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #1086

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #1086]

You've asked that question before, and you were provided an answer, whether you agree with the answer or not.
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #1087

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:16 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #1086]

You've asked that question before, and you were provided an answer, whether you agree with the answer or not.
Yes.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:02 pm.... what I am saying is; paradise, earth, and heaven will all be the same place...
Emphasis MINE

I would say in response the following.


WILL HEAVEN AND EARTH BECOME THE SAME PLACE?


No, biblically the physical and the spiritual remain two seperate realms inhabited by two different life forms (see 1 Cor 15:44). To say "they become the same place" in the sense that the spiritual bodied become physical (while at the same time remaining spiritual ) and physical (carbon based, flesh and blood) individuals live in the spiritual realm (heaven), is absolutely wrong (Mat 5:34, 35a). "Heaven on earth" is a figure of speech, not a literal reality. There is no biblical basis to say that heaven and earth will literally refer to, or become "the same place".



JEHOVAHS WITNESS



GOD
Will God ever literally leave his present abode in heaven and relocate to live on a physical planet (earth)?
viewtopic.php?p=812525#p812525

Does Revelation 21 not indicate God will leave heaven to dwell with humans (on earth)?
viewtopic.php?p=812549#p812549

Does God need to leave the spirit realm and literally live on some part of the planet earth to "reside" with man?
viewtopic.php?p=812489#p812489



HEAVEN
Do ALL good people go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p878615

Is the "great crowd" refered to at Revelation 7:9 also in heaven?
viewtopic.php?p=967777#p967777

WHY does God call some to heavenly life from the earth?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 97#p846997

Do worshippers have to literally be in heaven to be "with" God ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 16#p967716
EARTH
What is being refered to when the bible speaks about a PARADISE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 32#p855832

Is there scriptural support for the idea that the Messianic promises of a paradise will be fullfilled, on this our planet EARTH?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 68#p855568

Can the bibles promised be described as "heaven on earth"?
viewtopic.php?p=1044147#p1044147

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , THE EARTHLY PARADISE and ... THE 144, 000
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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William
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #1088

Post by William »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:39 am [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1081]
Venom, I understand your point. There just has been a hang-up over the word "citizenship." What you think about some of us living on Earth forever and some in heaven (as we believe) is correct.
I think that the whole idea is appealing because I also think that what a person believes in this phase determines what they will experience in the next phase.

For me personally, the idea of being in any one of the heavens or being on just one planet forever, is not appealing, because it restricts my freedom of movement and I want to observe all that there is to observe, and at will - to learn as much as I can about all that there is.

I can't do that if I am dead to any experience, any more than if I were only alive to the options of heavens or a solitary planet, "forever and ever amen".


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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #1089

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:09 am
However, that still doesn't, in my opinion, automatically mean that the 144k will reside in heaven, as this is not what scriptures state.

1. The Bible states that 144k will be redeemed from earth (Rev 14:3)
DOES REVELATION 14:3 INDICATE THE 144,000 WILL RESIDE IN HEAVEN?

Yes. Note the following reasons ....


1. If they are not on earth (or in the physical realm/universe) they are in the spiritual realm. Biblically, there is nowhere else for them to be.

2. The scripture explains that the 144K says they stand with the lamb. If we take the lamb to refer to Jesus who was resurrected to be with "our Father who art in HEAVEN" ...then it is a given that the 144,000 are pictured where God and Jesus are... ie, in heaven.

3. The Apostle Paul explained the symbology of Mount Zion
HEBREWS 12:22 NIV

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,


CONCLUSION : There is ample scriptural support to conclude that in symbolic language the 144,000 are indeed pictured in Revelation as being in HEAVEN.




RELATED POSTS


HOW are the 144,000 going to assist Jesus from heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 5#p1005585


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #1090

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:53 pm
DOES REVELATION 14:3 INDICATE THE 144,000 WILL RESIDE IN HEAVEN?

Yes. Note the following reasons

1. If they are not on earth (or in the physical realm/universe) they are in the spiritual realm. Biblically, there is nowhere else for them to be.
I've already responded to this.
2. The scripture explains that the 144K says they stand with the lamb. If we take the lamb to refer to Jesus who was resurrected to be with "our Father who art in HEAVEN" ...then it is a given that the 144,000 are pictured where God and Jesus are... ie, in heaven.
I've already addressed this, too.

Wow, you are carrying on as if I didn't address any of this stuff already.

SMH.
3. The Apostle Paul explained the symbology of Mount Zion

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Sounds like heaven to me.
CONCLUSION : There is ample scriptural support to conclude that in symbolic language the 144,000 are indeed pictured in Revelation as being in HEAVEN.
If that is what you believe, fine. All I ask is that you don't make it doctrine.

But hey, too late for that.
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