The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[JehovahsWitness]

JOHN 10:16

And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

So, you are saying this scripture is an example of, supports, your thesis of two groups?

On the contrary, "they will become one flock", not two.

When you say "they" who speifically are you refering to? Can you (to avoid confusion) quote from Jesus words the nouns he referred to rather than just use one (plural) pronoun?


Thanks,


JW

[Checkpoint]

JOHN 10:16

And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

Checkpoint posted:

So, you are saying this scripture is an example of, supports, your thesis of two groups?

On the contrary, "they will become one flock", not two.

When you say "they" who speifically are you refering to? Can you (to avoid confusion) quote from Jesus words the nouns he referred to rather than just use one (plural) pronoun?

Thanks,

JW

Yes I can, no problem.

When I said "they", I was referring specifically to those sheep Jesus said "will become one flock".

Who do you say "they", those sheep, are, specifically, in this passage?

[JehovahsWitness]

I didnt ask for your interpretation, I asked for you to point out the the words Jesus used. What terms did Jesus use? Being able to identify different terms in a text goes a long way in understanding its meaning.

JOHN 10:16

And I have [1] other sheep, which are not of [2] this FOLD* ; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

[*] A fold: is a pen or enclosure in a field where livestock, especially sheep, can be kept.



What would the diagram look like AFTER Jesus bought the other sheep in to become "one FLOCK" ?







JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000

[Checkpoint]

I didnt ask for your interpretation, I asked for you to point out the the words Jesus used. What terms did Jesus use? Being able to identify different terms in a text goes a long way in understanding its meaning.

JOHN 10:16

And I have [1] other sheep, which are not of [2] this FOLD* ; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

[*] A fold: is a pen or enclosure in a field where livestock, especially sheep, can be kept.

JW

Good point, well made.

I think we know what a flock is, but a fold not so much.

So I now quote from two sources:

Strong's Concordance:

aulé: a courtyard, a court
Original Word: αὐλή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aulé
Phonetic Spelling: (ow-lay')
Definition: a courtyard, a court
Usage: court-yard, fore-court, sheep-fold; but it may be understood as: palace, house.
HELPS Word-studies:

833 aulḗ – a building with an interior courtyard; an uncovered, walled area that is enclosed but without a roof; an open-air (interior) courtyard of a mansion or palace.

In your understanding who, when Jesus spoke of them that day, were "those "not of this fold", and who were "of this fold"?

What do you understand from him to mean by saying "those too I must bring in"?

[JehovahsWitness]

In your understanding who, when Jesus spoke of them that day, were "those "not of this fold", and who were "of this fold"?

Why are you asking the above? Unless your question presupposes two seperate groups it is redundant.

In other words if you were to ask "In your understanding who is "the blond woman" and who The one that is "not the blond woman", the question is about two (not one ) two different women ? Whoever ask this question of the speaker, recognises the discussion is about two different and distinct woman.

So are you indeed recognising Jesus spoke about two different and distinct groups and are asking me who each of the two groups represents?




Please clarify,


JW

[tam]

Peace to you both,

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #773]

[*] A fold: is a pen or enclosure in a field where livestock, especially sheep, can be kept.

Yes, and in fact, the NIV (the translation I most often use, though I like to compare) states:

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.



So that the sheep from "this [particular] sheep pen" will be added to... with other sheep whom Christ calls, to (all) become one flock with one shepherd.


Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

In your understanding who, when Jesus spoke of them that day, were "those "not of this fold", and who were "of this fold"?

Why are you asking the above? Unless your question presupposes two seperate groups it is redundant.

In other words if you were to ask "In your understanding who is "the blond woman" and who The one that is "not the blond woman", the question is about two (not one ) two different women ? Whoever ask this question of the speaker, recognises the discussion is about two different and distinct woman.

So are you indeed recognising Jesus spoke about two different and distinct groups and are asking me who each of the two groups represents?

Please clarify,

JW

Jesus in the pasage did not refer to two groups or two flocks, but to two folds.

Hence my question.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus in the pasage did not refer to two groups .... but to two folds.

Is the word two singular or plural?

• Does the chart above correctly represent Jesus opening words?

• What do you thinks the circles represents? ie.. .. the circles represent ... [fill in the blank*]

NOTE Jesus spoke of "other" sheep (not of this fold). Since he said the word "other" we can conclude there are sheep inside the fold. For example if I were to say " These are mine but I have other cats", we can conclude that the pronoun "these" also refer to "cats".

So from Jesus words we have sheep inside (the fold) and sheep outside the fold. Two identifiable [please provide a suitable word here*] that goes with the number two.



JW

[Checkpoint]

Jesus in the pasage did not refer to two groups .... but to two folds.

Is the word two singular or plural?

• Does the chart above correctly represent Jesus opening words?

• What do you thinks the circles represents? ie.. .. the circles represent ... [fill in the blank*]

NOTE Jesus spoke of "other" sheep (not of this fold). Since he said the word "other" we can conclude there are sheep inside the fold. For example if I were to say " These are mine but I have other cats", we can conclude that the pronoun "these" also refer to "cats".

So from Jesus words we have sheep inside (the fold) and sheep outside the fold. Two identifiable [please provide a suitable word here*] that goes with the number two.

JW

The word "two" is plural.

John 10 is mostly quite clear.

Two sheep and, maybe, two folds.''

What we now have to ascertain, therefore, is who he refers to as "my sheep", and who he refers to as "other sheep".

And what "this fold" actually is, and what he means by saying "not of this fold".

How would you put those things?

[JehovahsWitness]

First we need to establish if Jesus was referred to two groups of sheep OR two individuel sheep.

Two sheep and, maybe, two folds.''

When you say "two sheep" do you mean two sheep singular or two sheep plural (in english we dont say "sheeps") ?

A collective noun is a word or phrase that refers to a group of people or things as one entity.


Did Jesus say he had "another" sheep or "other" sheep. If Jesus said he had "other sheep" (plural) even if there was a single solitary sheep in the fold, he spoke of two groups (ie two seperate catagorizations) of sheep.


JW