tam wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 am
tam wrote:If that is your reason for saying that of some of us, then you are doing the same thing. Because there is nothing in that verse which states that people who rise to judgment remain in existence for all time.
PinSeeker wrote:The word 'eternal' is right there, isn't it? And that means for eternity... of eternity... for the duration of eternity. There is no ambiguity.
Have you forgotten which verse was under discussion?
LOL! No.
No, I've not forgotten, Tammy. I came back around to that at the end of my last post -- which I guess you know, you are just being... well, seem to be being, anyway... disingenuous. This conversation has become wide-ranging and maybe close to unwieldy, really. What I should have said was, only a rising to a resurrection, either to the right or left, is mentioned; absolutely nothing else is mentioned or implied. This was always the case. The
lack of any mention of any event happening to the unrepentant after this rising to the resurrection of judgment is -- should be, anyway -- all that is necessary to dispel the myth of annihilation. Annihilation is not mentioned or implied, and therefore, if applied, is an egregious addition to the text. Further, since there is no mention beyond the resurrection, one can really only credibly assume that one remains in this basic risen to a resurrection state, regardless which resurrection one is risen to. The text is what it is, as I said: nothing more, and nothing less.
tam wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 am
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
Did you not state that people who believe in destruction (annihilation) are adding to what is written in this verse?
I did, because destruction -- which is not annihilation, but that's beside the immediate point, here -- is not in view here. Only the resurrection to the right or left is. See immediately above.
tam wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 am
Well, neither is "eternal existence under judgment" written in this verse.
Yes, it absolutely is, because after resurrection -- again, either to the right or the left -- one exists and is living, in the wooden literal sense. The only question is whether one has true life (in and with Christ) or not... and my answer above is relevant again, because, as I said, since there is no mention of anything beyond the resurrection, one can really only credibly assume that one remains in this basic risen to a resurrection state, regardless which resurrection one is risen to. The text is what it is, as I said: nothing more, and nothing less.
tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
PinSeeker wrote:There is nothing written in the Bible that even insinuates annihilation, and in fact the opposite is true, especially in the concept of eternal punishment.
Tam wrote:This is not true.
PinSeeker wrote:Indeed it is true.
Tam wrote:You have been provided evidence of things in the bible which certainly do insinuate annihilation (destruction).
PinSeeker wrote:Yes, evidence without merit, and I have been very clear (as the Bible is) why.
You see, this is why I was content not to have this discussion yet again.
Okay, so why did you start it? Or why did you enter in to it? Nobody put a gun to your head or anything... did they???
tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
When it comes to 'that is not true'... 'yes it is true'... nothing more is being added to the discussion.
Agreed, but that's always what every debate that remains unresolved in the end -- finally -- comes down to, right? I mean, really, it does. Right? Aside from that, though, this comment is yet again disingenuous, because it seems to portray the conversation as devoid of substance, which is surely not the case.
tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
Tam wrote:Just because you do not accept those things, or dismiss them as having no meaning, does not mean that they do not exist.
PinSeeker wrote:I dismiss nothing. I refute it, because the Bible does. "These things" do not exist.
You dispute it. You cannot refute it, for reasons already stated.
But the reasons stated are deeply flawed, for the many Scriptural reasons I have stated here and elsewhere. This is another disingenuous comment, as if your "reasons" were incontrovertible or something (which they most assuredly were not). What you way here is mere opinion.
tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
PinSeeker wrote:When something is proclaimed as true, we can easily infer that it's opposite is not true. For example, Jesus says people are either for or against him, and by inference we can easily say that there is no neutral position. By the same token, Jesus says some are raised to life (those on his right in Matthew 25) and others are raised to judgement (those on his left in Matthew 25).
Tam wrote:Matt 25 (specifically the parable of the sheep and goats that you are referencing here) does not speak of a resurrection at all.
PinSeeker wrote:Right, the resurrection itself is not in view, as Jesus is speaking of the final Judgment, which takes place immediately after the second resurrection.
Tam wrote:By the standards you are using against some of us, this would mean that you are adding to what is written.
PinSeeker wrote:Absolutely not.
Then perhaps you should cease accusing some of us of doing this.
I will certainly cease doing that... if you quit doing it.
tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
Tam wrote:The sheep and the goats parable does not include mention of a resurrection (because of course the sheep and the goats are the people of the nations who are alive at the time Christ returns).
PinSeeker wrote:LOL! Absolutely... well, wrong... incomplete. Included are those who are still alive at the time Jesus returns, but also included are all those who have previously died physically... all the nations. More on this in a moment. But to dispute this is far outside basic Biblical understanding.
Not wrong or even incomplete at all.
Well, yes, wrong, but incomplete in the light that the sheep and the goats are
all people, those alive at the time of Christ's return, and those who have physically died but have just been resurrected (some to a resurrection of life, and some to a resurrection of judgment, in the words of John 5:29. This verse immediately follows verse 28, which says all who are in the tombs (if they are in their tombs, that means they have previously died) will hear Jesus's voice and come out. Saying the sheep and the goats are only those still alive at the time of Christ's return is not
completely incorrect, but woefully incomplete, and thus still... incorrect. Frankly, I can't believe you are disputing this, but hey, you're your own person.
tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
There is no mention of a resurrection in the sheep and the goats parable. Surely you cannot state that this is false.
I've stated this many, many times. Wow. The resurrection, in relation to the time setting of the parable of the sheep and the goats -- has already happened and is not immediately in view.
tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
Tam wrote:There is also no mention of faith (in Christ) as being the reason that the sheep are invited in and the goats are cast out. Because faith is not the reason for the sheep being invited in or the goats being cast out. The reason the sheep are invited into the Kingdom is listed though: it is based upon their deeds (as mentioned in the parable); upon how they have unknowingly treated Christ.
PinSeeker wrote:Good works, those honored by God, are the result of faith.
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"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."
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These are people who do NATURALLY the requirements of the law (the law which is love), and these ones will also be declared righteous. Not based on their faith (they may or may not have faith). But based upon their deeds; their doing BY NATURE, the things required by the law (love).
Well, but this nature is not their original nature, Tammy. They naturally do the requirements of the law because their heart has been changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36). They have been born again of the Spirit, faith has been worked in them, and then the fruit of the Spirit -- love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, against which there is no law (Ephesians 5). God has made natural for them what once was not. Read again what Paul said just before that in Ephesians 2:
.
"And you (all of us) were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you (we) once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
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I feel a "but" coming. Wait for it... WAIT FOR IT...
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"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you (we) have been saved -- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not your (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
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tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
(James) did not comment on works without faith.
No, and I didn't say he did. But the thrust of James 2:14-17 is that faith that is not accompanied by action is useless and dead, unable to save. James goes on to say, in verse 18, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith
by my works." Good works -- works that God honors, considers good and not filthy rags -- are the consequence of salvation; they are the outward sign of a sincere and grateful faith.
tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
YOU are twisting his words to say something that he never said.
<chuckles> Nope. See immediately above.
tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
The parable of the sheep and the goats begins with the King coming in His glory, angels with Him, and sitting on His throne.
Oh, my. How long, Lord? How long? The parable of the sheep and the goats is about the Judgment, which occurs immediately upon Jesus's return.
tam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
And what are you saying, anyway? That Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and they are changed in a twinkling... and then they come back down to the earth and are separated with the rest of the people of the nations? And they didn't realize that during their lifetimes that they had done good to Christ (by doing good to even a least one of His brothers), and they also did not know that they were going to be invited into the Kingdom that they were already a part of, having previously been caught up and changed to be with the Lord forever?
Makes no sense Pinseeker.
Well, that little ramble of yours certainly makes very little to no sense, I'm with you there... LOL!
But of course, that's only a terrible misunderstanding -- and caricature -- of what I said. That seems to be a bad habit of yours... I'll repost, a little more fleshed out this time:
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- Over the course of the "thousand years" (which is not literally one thousand 365-day periods, but rather the fullness of God's time, in which he brings His Israel to full completion) people are being spiritually resurrected and reigning with Christ over the course of that "thousand years."
- At the close of the millennium -- at the point that God has brought all Gentile believers into His Israel and subsequently removed the partial hardening (Romans 11) -- in short order:
- Jesus returns, bringing with Him those who have previously died from this life (1 Thessalonians 4:14). Here, actually, I need to make an amendment. The second resurrection actually coincides with this event; the dead in Christ will be rise (be resurrected) first, and then those who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). In that way, all believers, those who have previously died and those who are still alive, will join Christ in His return. This is actually the ultimate fulfillment of Palm Sunday. Then the rest of the dead, those not in Christ, are raised and stand with those still alive who are not in Christ. In all this, Satan is finally defeated.
- The Judgment (described in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20) occurs. All -- ALL -- are present for the Judgment -- the sheep on Jesus's right and the goats on Jesus's left -- and those on the left are sent away from the New Heaven and New Earth.
tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
PinSeeker wrote:The answer to the first question is, co-inheritance with Christ of the kingdom, the new heaven and new earth.
tam wrote:But that was decided a thousand years earlier (at the first resurrection). The first resurrection occurs... then the thousand years occurs... then the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) and the judgment occurs. No one resurrected at the second resurrection reigns in the Kingdom for the thousand years with Christ (since that thousand years has already passed).
PinSeeker wrote:Ohhhhh, boy.
My point was pretty simple.
Exactly the problem. To simple. Simplistic.
tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
Can anyone resurrected at the end of "the thousand years" reign with Christ in His Kingdom FOR "the thousand years"?
<sigh> Have you ever seen the drawing of the old hag? You know, a simple Google search will turn it up. That's how it may appear, but if you look at it a little closer, it's actually a fair young maiden with her head turned to the side rather than a portrait of an old hag. The point being, your question itself is irrelevant... a non sequitur. Try to see it like this, Tammy; give it a try: Deceased believers now (and DURING the entire "thousand years," which means the time from Pentecost to the second coming of Christ) are "reigning" with Christ from heaven. You're seeing it too simplistically. That doesn't mean you're lacking intellect or anything like that, but you're just seeing it too simplistically.
tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
Isn't death the last enemy, Pinseeker? Isn't death also destroyed?
Yes, there will be no more death -- or suffering or sorrow of any kind -- in the New Heaven and New Earth. Sorrow and sighing will flee away, in the words of Isaiah 35. When believers are finally resurrected from the dead, the defeat of death -- its destruction -- will be complete.
tam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
How could I have put words in your mouth when I simply repeated your own words?
You didn't "simply repeat my own words. But... withdrawn, for your sake.
Grace and peace to you, Tammy.