The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #980]

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Is this all in all the tribes?
Probably not.

This is not all in all the tribes. This is 12000 in each of the 12 listed tribes. (Dan does not have a portion listed, but Joseph gets a double portion via his son)

So does this mean God knows in advance how many throughout history will be 'good enough' (however you wish to determine this) to be picked from these tribes? Doesn't this point to fate or predestination?

These are 144 000 spaces reserved for Israel, as a remnant of Israel that God has reserved for himself.

More than just 144 000 from Israel can reign with Christ as kings and priests (as part of the rest of the great crowd), but 144 000 from Israel are reserved.

If God knows the specific identity of the people in each of those spots (and in the rest of the great crowd), that doesn't have to mean that God fated it to be that way (one could possibly lose their spot - for the one unforgivable sin - and another could then take their place). But God does know us, even beforehand. Knowing what someone is going to do, however, is not the same as making them do it.

Otherwise, one would expect him not to be able to pinpoint such a specific number, no?

Except it could certainly be more than 144k. Just that 144k are reserved from those twelve tribes of Israel. More than that would just be among the rest of the great crowd (that no one can count).

That is, assuming this 144K isn't specific, but symbolic in a way. If it's not specific, then the total doesn't really matter in this discussion. (or one could argue in any other discussion).

If it were symbolic, it would not matter, that is true.

God may not be a mathematician, specifically, but if anything God says (or is recorded to have said) is to be believed, I suspect these words need to be accurate. Otherwise, it's all fluff.

Oh, He absolutely is a mathematician. Just way more advanced than us. How else could one create a universe, design a plan from the beginning to the end, taking into account all the variables, including choices that people make, etc.

(He'd also be a physicist, a biologist, a chemist, etc, just with ALL knowledge in ALL those areas).


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #982]

More than just 144 000 from Israel can reign with Christ as kings and priests (as part of the rest of the great crowd), but 144 000 from Israel are reserved

Seems rather pointless, really. Unless it's favoritism, which seems rather 'human' and not 'god-like' (assuming God loves everyone equally).

If God knows the specific identity of the people in each of those spots (and in the rest of the great crowd), that doesn't have to mean that God fated it to be that way

If God knows, for example, 1,000 are going to get where ever and do what ever, then he knows those 1,000 people and thus, they're fated.
Unless God disbands any sense of logic and creates a whole other concept, which humanity isn't capable of understanding.

Just that 144k are reserved from those twelve tribes of Israel.

Which is the point. Why just 144K? Why not 144,001? Why not 145,999? Besides that seems an oddly even numbers (assuming freedom of choice and free will), surely there would be more than (*or even less than) 144K - exactly - worthy enough to be appointed whatever title.
Such a thing seems more 'man' thinking than 'god' to me. But I don't have blind faith so what do I know?

Oh, He absolutely is a mathematician. Just way more advanced than us. How else could one create a universe, design a plan from the beginning to the end, taking into account all the variables, including choices that people make, etc.

(He'd also be a physicist, a biologist, a chemist, etc, just with ALL knowledge in ALL those areas).

Sure could.
Or it could be a bunch of human-created bunk.
Faith says it's what you claim. Which is why faith's needed - to fly in the face of common sense, logic and the unbelievable.
Common sense, maybe, says it's a bunch of bunk.
We each put our eggs in our representative baskets, don't we?

[JehovahsWitness]

Doesn't this point to fate or predestination?

The number is fixed and predetermined; which individuals will be in that number, is not. No individuals are named and even those chosen must as a prerequisite prove faithful. If (like Jusdas with Matthias) someone proves unfaithful the number will not be reduced to 143, 999 ... rather that faithless individual will be replaced.

JW


Are 144,000 predestined to be saved?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 05#p846605

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #982]

More than just 144 000 from Israel can reign with Christ as kings and priests (as part of the rest of the great crowd), but 144 000 from Israel are reserved

Seems rather pointless, really. Unless it's favoritism, which seems rather 'human' and not 'god-like' (assuming God loves everyone equally).

It is based on a promise to Abraham, because of Abraham's faith (and the promises are for him and his children).

I don't know why man says that God loves everyone equally (or even that He must love everyone; though He certainly showed love for the world in sending His Son to begin with). But obviously He loves His Son the most. He also loves those who love His Son, and certainly those who have become children of God (because who does not love their own children most?)

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. John 1:12, 13

"Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him." John 14:21

Then others are also blessed and invited into the Kingdom, for what they have done for Christ (even unknowingly), since whatever one does for even a least one of His brothers (even if not known), one does for Him (sheep and goats parable; sheep are not Christian) Such ones show that the law (of love) is written upon their hearts, because they do the requirements of that law NATURALLY (Romans 2:13-16).

And of course Israel is loved on account of the patriarchs (Romans 11:28).

If God knows the specific identity of the people in each of those spots (and in the rest of the great crowd), that doesn't have to mean that God fated it to be that way

If God knows, for example, 1,000 are going to get where ever and do what ever, then he knows those 1,000 people and thus, they're fated.
Unless God disbands any sense of logic and creates a whole other concept, which humanity isn't capable of understanding.

I can know something my child is going to do, but that does not mean that I have fated them to do it. I can especially know something my child is going to do if I am looking back from the future and see it for myself. God sees much more than we see, and from a greater pov than ours.

I don't see how logic needs to be abandoned to be able to get a sense of that.

Just that 144k are reserved from those twelve tribes of Israel.

Which is the point. Why just 144K? Why not 144,001? Why not 145,999? Besides that seems an oddly even numbers (assuming freedom of choice and free will), surely there would be more than (*or even less than) 144K - exactly - worthy enough to be appointed whatever title.
Such a thing seems more 'man' thinking than 'god' to me. But I don't have blind faith so what do I know?

It can be an even number because those are specific places reserved for Israel. Again, more than that number can be part of the great crowd, but there is a for sure 144 000 (12000 from each of the twelve tribes) reserved for Israel.

I don't see how that takes away free will or free choice. The comment about blind faith... well, I suppose John did only HEAR that number, but he also saw a great deal other things.


Regardless, 'blind faith' usually carries the meaning of believing something without evidence. But faith is based upon evidence, based upon what one hears.

Perhaps it is not based on the kind of evidence that some people want, but that doesn't make faith blind.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #977]

It's that simple. The Bible says that the 144,000 will be taken out of ALL nations. (Revelation 5:9,10) Not just Israel.

Why, in your view, are those verses about the 144,000?

Because they are described in the 14th chapter. The people in the 5th chapter are ones that "sing a new song," and are out of every nation, "made to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." So are the people in chapter 14. There they are also described as singing "a new song" and have been bought from the earth as a very special group "before the throne," just as those described in chapter 5.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #975]

It's that simple. The Bible says that the 144,000 will be taken out of ALL nations. (Revelation 5:9,10) Not just Israel.

Why, in your view, are those verses about the 144,000?

Because they are described in the 14th chapter. The people in the 5th chapter are ones that "sing a new song," and are out of every nation, "made to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." So are the people in chapter 14. There they are also described as singing "a new song" and have been bought from the earth as a very special group "before the throne," just as those described in chapter 5.

Clear and specific, which I find pleasing, but, regrettably, not all is accurately according to Revelation 5 and 14.

1). Those who sang the song differ.

In 5 it was "the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders"; in 14 it was "the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth".


2). You wrote, of those in chapter 5: "made to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth" So are the people in chapter 14.

That is nowhere in chapter 14!

Is it?

There is more, but this will do for now.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #984]

The number is fixed and predetermined; which individuals will be in that number, is not. No individuals are named and even those chosen must as a prerequisite prove faithful. If (like Jusdas with Matthias) someone proves unfaithful the number will not be reduced to 143, 999 ... rather that faithless individual will be replaced.

That seems even worse - an eternity lottery!
What happens if there 144,001 that's 'worthy' (by whatever metric you use here)?
It's all utter hogwash, really. You're simply trying to justify something that's unjustifiable. Unless, fate and destiny come into play here.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #985]

It is based on a promise to Abraham, because of Abraham's faith (and the promises are for him and his children).

So? Promises can be pointless.

I don't know why man says that God loves everyone equally (or even that He must love everyone; though He certainly showed love for the world in sending His Son to begin with).

Maybe because that's what's taught in 99.9%* of churches? Maybe that's a question you should pose to the world's Christian churches teaching such things?
Surely God wouldn't let his people be taught wrongly, right?!?

But you bring up a good point: God doesn't love everyone. How do we know if God loves us? If he doesn't love everyone, then this 144,000 number makes a bit more sense, as he's selective and has favorites.
And if he doesn't love me, or the girl over there, or the guy right there, why should we want to worship and love him back? What is he doing for those that he doesn't love?

I can know something my child is going to do, but that does not mean that I have fated them to do it.

Christians: please (ironically) for the love of God stop using the child/parent analogy, as it's not proper. Parents don't know EVERYTHING. We're not ALL POWERFUL. We're not CREATORS FROM NOTHING.

I suppose John did only HEAR that number, but he also saw a great deal other things.

So do a lot of people. Some are mentally ill. Some are on drugs, prescription or no. But what people are doing here, is taking on BLIND FAITH that someone else, they never met, or even know existed, said about BLIND FAITH. It's circular reasoning at its worst. But if that works for you, that's fine. Just be prepared to constantly having to defend such nonsense to others.


*A hyperbole number to illustrate a point

[1213]

...
So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?
...

I believe this:

"The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation; neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 17:20-21

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #985]

It is based on a promise to Abraham, because of Abraham's faith (and the promises are for him and his children).

So? Promises can be pointless.

What do you mean, so? You asked the question. I just responded. You suggested pointlessness (or favoritism) of there being 144 000 guaranteed from Israel, but this is based on a promise to Abraham, due to the faith of Abraham.

I don't know why man says that God loves everyone equally (or even that He must love everyone; though He certainly showed love for the world in sending His Son to begin with).

Maybe because that's what's taught in 99.9%* of churches? Maybe that's a question you should pose to the world's Christian churches teaching such things?

Surely God wouldn't let his people be taught wrongly, right?!?

I don't recall God ever saying, "Listen to what many various 'churches' teach".

Rather, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

People are free to choose who they listen to, though.

But you bring up a good point: God doesn't love everyone. How do we know if God loves us? If he doesn't love everyone, then this 144,000 number makes a bit more sense, as he's selective and has favorites.

The 144 000 guarantees a portion to Israel, due to the promise and love for Abraham (and so also Abraham's offspring). But there is more than 144 000 who enter into the Kingdom, either as king-priests (for those who are in Christ) or as subjects of the Kingdom (for those who are not in Christ).

I just don't see how anyone has any cause at all to complain about that.

And if he doesn't love me, or the girl over there, or the guy right there, why should we want to worship and love him back? What is he doing for those that he doesn't love?

From my first response: "though He certainly showed love for the world in sending His Son to begin with"

and,

Then others are also blessed and invited into the Kingdom, for what they have done for Christ (even unknowingly), since whatever one does for even a least one of His brothers (even if not known), one does for Him (sheep and goats parable; sheep are not Christian) Such ones show that the law (of love) is written upon their hearts, because they do the requirements of that law NATURALLY (Romans 2:13-16).

and,

And of course Israel is loved on account of the patriarchs (Romans 11:28).


What a person does with that - or with the invitation to "Come!" - is not up to me. But sending His Son to begin with, and that Son being willing and giving His life, how does that not show love?

I can know something my child is going to do, but that does not mean that I have fated them to do it.

Christians: please (ironically) for the love of God stop using the child/parent analogy, as it's not proper. Parents don't know EVERYTHING. We're not ALL POWERFUL. We're not CREATORS FROM NOTHING.

It is an example to help a person be able to get a sense of this; in fact it should drive the point home even more. If I can know (even if not 100%) what my child will choose (because I know that child), how much more so a being who sees and hears and knows more than me? Then understand, that even if I COULD know for 100% sure what my child is going to do, that still would not mean that I made them do it, or that I fated them into doing it.

I suppose John did only HEAR that number, but he also saw a great deal other things.

So do a lot of people. Some are mentally ill. Some are on drugs, prescription or no. But what people are doing here, is taking on BLIND FAITH that someone else, they never met, or even know existed, said about BLIND FAITH.

No one said anything about blind faith (well, except for you, lol). But John did not say anything about blind faith. He had evidence for His faith, whether a person accepts that or not is another matter. But my faith is not based upon what John wrote. My faith is based and built upon Christ, the living Christ.

That might not mean anything to some others, but what would that have to do with me or my faith? If you just meant that people will continue to make accusations, well sure, but what is that to me? How are those accusations not blind, themselves?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy