The Christian Response to Homosexuality II: Legal Issues

[micatala]

As noted in the other thread, I am creating this parallel thread to specifically address the following questions.

In terms of political society, what sort of laws should Christians support with respect to homosexuality? If there is to be unequal treatment of homosexuals under the law, what is the Biblical basis for this?

Again, we can assume for the purposes of this thread that homosexuality is immoral according to standard Christian teaching. There is no need to cite scripture here to support this contention.

However, it definitely is appropriate to cite scripture to support political positions. If one is to take the position that homosexual acts should be prohibited by civil law (not just church law), that applies to both CHristians and non-CHristians, then it is incumbent upon the person taking this position to provide Biblical support for said position.

[chachynga]

Simplicity at its best:

Isaiah
1 10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.


oh, all laws come from God and all Government that is Just and from God will hold his laws, including the execution of Homosexuals and the like...

Daniel
9 13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.


Deuteronomy
31 11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.



Cant have a kingdome without Laws, and we alread know its sin and this sin has a mandated punishment with its discovery, so the penalty for a law abiding follower of God is to carry them out in body politik.


Many Christians have been taught that in this Church Age, we have become completely divorced from the Old Testament. They do not realize that the New Covenant in Jesus Christ can be found complete in the Old Testament :

Jeremiah
31 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

And note whom the NT is FOR:

Hebrews
8 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:



and Oh yea, it's eternal, yea:


Jeremiah
31 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.


Hebrews
8 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


OHOoops! Law again, how do these baal christians think they can fool any bible reader?

Always Law as God Never Changes.

There are those that use the eraser very well towards those that know not the truth.

Notice in the NEW covenant he does not lay conditions upon the carrying OUT of the obligation and foretelling of God...

Isaiah
61 8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.


Kings and priests have a system of rules to follow, so they must follow the one true God of OT Scripture, his laws as guidelines and if man is supposed to be Christ Like to me moral, he is to carry out the fathers wills, or do we over write the laws of God (who does not change)?

Remember God will put HIS laws into your minds and hearts and they will be followed and in and with LOVE because God is Love, remember!




Romans

13 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


Eph. 3 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


Psalms

26 1 Judge me, O LORD; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the LORD; therefore I shall not slide. 2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart. 3 For thy lovingkindness is before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth. 4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers. 5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked. 6 I will wash mine hands in innocency: so will I compass thine altar, O LORD: 7 That I may publish with the voice of thanksgiving, and tell of all thy wondrous works. 8 LORD, I have loved the habitation of thy house, and the place where thine honour dwelleth. 9 Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men: 10 In whose hands is mischief, and their right hand is full of bribes. 11 But as for me, I will walk in mine integrity: redeem me, and be merciful unto me. 12 My foot standeth in an even place: in the congregations will I bless the LORD.



Jeremiah 32 38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

Ezekiel
36 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .

Remember this is all foretold:

Jeremiah
50 5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying , Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.


So how could any real People of God exist that holds contrary to Gods very nature that does not change?


Jeremiah
32 40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.


Psalms
5 4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.


Psalms
10 15 Break thou the arm of the wicked and the evil man : seek out his wickedness till thou find none.


Psalms
34 21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate. 22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.


Nahum
1 11 There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.


EZera 7 25 And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not. 26 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.


Psalms
82 1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.



Gods people will have the heart of God in mans Flesh and will abide by his ways...



I John
5 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Honestly, do you think God is a truth teller or do you love mans doctrines more? Truth is God never changes and his laws stand forever. It's your hard hearts and love of the lie you hold that says his pure love and truth are a lie by saying his laws are of none application today.

As Christians we shall follow God.


I John
3 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Paul said:

Romans
5 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Our courts were not brought into being to make the law---but to determine guilt or innocence. Oh, people of the book, O Israel true Israel here the words of the Lord and heal thy land:


II Chronicles
7 14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


NOTE Christians: forgive their sin, and will heal their land

Land is defiled because of sin, to have Gods healing, you must OBEY him.

As A Nation we must obey

out of battery

[melikio]

NOTE Christians: forgive their sin, and will heal their land

Land is defiled because of sin, to have Gods healing, you must OBEY him.

As A Nation we must obey

I'm so sick of this single-Christian-speaks-for-everyone, BS.

Do what you think is right in God's eyes, and let others pursue what they think/believe is right, unless there is a crime or direct dispute to tend. Otherwise, laying down a few verses from the Bible and interpreting it to support your perspective on all of this, means just about zilch.

People are going to watch you as a person, and the effects of the things you do will be measured by God period. He'll weigh you heart and mind absolutely, and His judgement will be perfect (unlike that which you seem to be willing to impose upon other human beings).

-Mel-

[micatala]

Daniel
9 13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

This and many of the other OT quotations concerning the law apply to Israel. Even at that time, these laws did not uniformly apply to all peoples, even those living among the Israelits. For example, from Exodus chapter 12:

43 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "These are the regulations for the Passover:
"No foreigner is to eat of it. 44 Any slave you have bought may eat of it after you have circumcised him, 45 but a temporary resident and a hired worker may not eat of it.

46 "It must be eaten inside one house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones. 47 The whole community of Israel must celebrate it.

An example of a law explicitly applying only the Israelites. In several places it states that particular laws apply to the Israelites and the 'aliens living among you', in other words, those who are part of an Israelite household. I do not see any justification here to apply these laws to all people. They were given as part of the Covenant with Israel, and so apply to that group. One might possibly make a case they apply to Christians as the heirs of this Covenant, but I don't see that they would apply to non-Christians.

See also Exodus 23,

9 "Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.

Consider also the following from Leviticus, chapter 20:

7 " 'Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. 8 Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy.

9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

Again, these laws apply to the Israelites because of the Covenant they had with God required that they make themselves holy.

There is no indication that other peoples living at the time were expected fo follow these laws, institute these penalties, etc. Israel at that time could be described as a theocracy. The theocratic laws applied to those who were part of that specific belief system.

chachynga cited the following verse:

Romans

13 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Yes, Paul does say here and elsewhere that all powers are established of God, and that we should in general obey these powers. It definitely does not say that all these powers will institute God's laws, and this clearly was not the case even in Paul's time. There is no justification here for saying that all governments should apply Biblical law as civil law.


Several other verses quoted describe the judgment of God upon the wicked. Note well that this judgment is God's and not man's. There are judgments that God reserves to Himself. It seems to me usurping God's role to take unto oneself as a man the power to make these judgments. If it is true that God will punish sinners (of whatever nature) than we in general need not worry about this, but rather should trust God to make a right judgment, instead of seeking to make His judgment for him.


I would agree, we as Christians are called to follow God, to avoid sin, etc. However, although we are encouraged to gather together to assist each other in this endeavor, it is to 'our own master' that we stand or fall. As it says in Romans 14, 'who are you to judge your brother.'

As Christians, we should act in faith and our best conscience to do good. Paul allows that we might make different judgments for ourselves what is right (see ROmans 14). If we make a wrong judgment, we are responsible to God alone.

We are not given license to decide what is right for everyone else, even fellow believers, but even more so with respect to those who do not claim Jesus as Lord.

[chachynga]

Nice Dialetrics Micatala.

Too bad they don't fully line up.

And yes, Many Laws and the Book of the Bible is about Israel, for them, and their Governments, and all those that want to be at peace with them.

Like it or Not, the world is supposed to fall under God and all his laws, including all peoples... No law under man has any authority other than derrived from Gods Word i.e. the Holy Bible i.e. Scripture! None!

And some food for thought!

Jeremiah

6 1 O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Bethhaccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction. 2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman . 3 The shepherds with their flocks shall come unto her; they shall pitch their tents against her round about; they shall feed every one in his place. 4 Prepare ye war against her; arise, and let us go up at noon. Woe unto us! for the day goeth away, for the shadows of the evening are stretched out. 5 Arise, and let us go by night, and let us destroy her palaces. 6 For thus hath the LORD of hosts said, Hew ye down trees, and cast a mount against Jerusalem: this is the city to be visited; she is wholly oppression in the midst of her. 7 As a fountain casteth out her waters, so she casteth out her wickedness: violence and spoil is heard in her; before me continually is grief and wounds. 8 Be thou instructed, O Jerusalem, lest my soul depart from thee; lest I make thee desolate, a land not inhabited. 9 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall throughly glean the remnant of Israel as a vine: turn back thine hand as a grapegatherer into the baskets. 10 To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it. 11 Therefore I am full of the fury of the LORD; I am weary with holding in: I will pour it out upon the children abroad, and upon the assembly of young men together: for even the husband with the wife shall be taken, the aged with him that is full of days. 12 And their houses shall be turned unto others, with their fields and wives together: for I will stretch out my hand upon the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD. 13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. 14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. 15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD. 16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein . 17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying , Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken. 18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them. 19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. 20 To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me. 21 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish. 22 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth. 23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion. 24 We have heard the fame thereof: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail. 25 Go not forth into the field, nor walk by the way; for the sword of the enemy and fear is on every side. 26 O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us. 27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way. 28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters. 29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away. 30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

[melikio]

oh, all laws come from God and all Government that is Just and from God will hold his laws, including the execution of Homosexuals and the like...

Like what? Like the oppressive laws of nations run by corrupt kings, clerics and murderers (many allegedly backed by the Bible)?

You are saying rather STUPID things here; it really doesn't deserve too much argument. Although I think all "thinking" minds should be guarded against the kind of of mentality that could come of it.

So, unless you are willing to say that the "God" of terroristic Islamists or racist Klansmen, is the same "God" that all laws come from, then you'd be wise to revise your statement or view of things. After all, that is somewhat the anatomy of religious-based wars: "MY god vs. YOUR god."

And contrary to some people's highly-warped beliefs, homosexual people aren't necessarily "godless". From what we can see, some agree that the "Christian Response to Homosexuality", amounts to nothing short of "WAR" upon homosexuals; that is as evil as it is STUPID. Too bad there are enough radical, violent jerks out there in the world, to make that a real concern.

Then again chachynga, it's only a matter of time, before your hateful form of religion returns "effects" upon your life, that may teach you more than any Bible lesson or argument with an opponent ever will. One thing is certain enough: God knows ALL, and none of us (humans) do.

If we don't or cannot have any peace, and the God of WHOEVER doesn't intend to have peace, then mankind is clearly screwed... so why bother doing anything that benefits anyone (Christian or otherwise)?

Why NOT just KILL anyone or anything we don't agree with?

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

Quote:
NOTE Christians: forgive their sin, and will heal their land

Land is defiled because of sin, to have Gods healing, you must OBEY him.

As A Nation we must obey

I'm so sick of this single-Christian-speaks-for-everyone, BS.

Debating the topics without ad hominem or poor pitful me-isms would be of good use.

Thank you for validating my assertion that: liberals, atheists, secularists, humanists, gays, lesbians, agnostics, freethinkers, socialists, progressives . . . yada, yada, yada, etc., etc., etc., et al ad ifinitum . . . are all the same thing.

Bullies and bullying tactics, do not scare Christians.

But as anyone can see (even that grand club I mention above) there are "literally" millions of "other" people that share "my" views.

Do what you think is right in God's eyes, and let others pursue what they think/believe is right, unless there is a crime or direct dispute to tend.

Gay and lesbians and all those so conjoined to their cause, directly dispute Christians have any rights outside of their Churches AND, AND as we have seen EVEN Churches are being "moved on" by the above Lemming Club (of gayslesbiansprogressivesliberalsetcetcetc), to be labeled as places of hate crimes. Soulforce???? Remember them???

Otherwise, laying down a few verses from the Bible and interpreting it to support your perspective on all of this, means just about zilch.

Asians, Arabs, Europeans and many other cultures that are not Christian, have no desire to see their children indoctrinated into homosexualization.

People are going to watch you as a person, and the effects of the things you do will be measured by God period. He'll weigh you heart and mind absolutely, and His judgement will be perfect (unlike that which you seem to be willing to impose upon other human beings).

Is this some kind of a warning? From what perspective could it possibly have any worth coming from?

Repugnance of the same-gender sex act is not just vocalized in the Christian community.

[1John2_26]

Quote:
oh, all laws come from God and all Government that is Just and from God will hold his laws, including the execution of Homosexuals and the like...

That was more than likely written by a Gay Rights activist posing as some wierd idea they were taught about. It is too obvious.

Like what? Like the oppressive laws of nations run by corrupt kings, clerics and murderers (many allegedly backed by the Bible)?

Like homosexuality taught to children in elementary schools no matter how hard their parents demand that it isn't?

You are saying rather STUPID things here; it really doesn't deserve too much argument. Although I think all "thinking" minds should be guarded against the kind of of mentality that could come of it.

The stupidity is not in the writings but believing that they are not written by someone with an anti-Christian plan being worked out.

So, unless you are willing to say that the "God" of terroristic Islamists or racist Klansmen, is the same "God" that all laws come from, then you'd be wise to revise your statement or view of things. After all, that is somewhat the anatomy of religious-based wars: "MY god vs. YOUR god."

The Gay Agenda is "our sex acts versus normal sex acts." No dissent or disapproval is offered. Very Talibanish.

And contrary to some people's highly-warped beliefs, homosexual people aren't necessarily "godless". From what we can see, some agree that the "Christian Response to Homosexuality", amounts to nothing short of "WAR" upon homosexuals; that is as evil as it is STUPID. Too bad there are enough radical, violent jerks out there in the world, to make that a real concern.

Too bad no ones reads the New Testament they so denigrate. No where did the Christians writing the New Testaemnt report that violoence towards anyone should be the order of the day. Just like not supporting homosexuality, the New Testament does not support violence.

Then again chachynga, it's only a matter of time, before your hateful form of religion returns "effects" upon your life, that may teach you more than any Bible lesson or argument with an opponent ever will. One thing is certain enough: God knows ALL, and none of us (humans) do.

The New Testament and the this " . . . including the execution of Homosexuals and the like..." have nothing in common and no connection. "Tolerating" does not mean accpeting OR affirming and does indeed sometimes mean "oppose" and "reject," but it does not support violence.

If we don't or cannot have any peace, and the God of WHOEVER doesn't intend to have peace, then mankind is clearly screwed... so why bother doing anything that benefits anyone (Christian or otherwise)?

The New Testament is true. Its benefits to its adherents and non-adherents is too well documented.

Why NOT just KILL anyone or anything we don't agree with?

"Logically" that may indeed have to be justified, but the better part of valor is to reject and avoid those that you disapprove of, or, find repulsive and threatening, until they will not give you the peace to live without being subject and subjected to them.

[melikio]

Repugnance of the same-gender sex act is not just vocalized in the Christian community.

So what? There are many things you say here that are "repugnant", but no one is seriously advocating that you SHUT YOUR MOUTH; or that LAWS be inacted to limit what you are saying.

For one, people don't usually have that kind of control over others; and they likely shouldn't have it.

So what if it's "vocalized"?. People say all kinds of unkind and negative things about other people, and they aren't necessarily put down for it. But does that make it "RIGHT"? (That is the ongoing MORAL question.)

Remember, some "Christians" are bigoted, homophobes... and all the Scripture in the Bible doesn't change that one iota. People DO mistreat homosexual people in the name of God; deal with it, or it will be dealt with.

LAWS are often invented and thrown into places where there is a vacuum. One such place is the inhumane treatment of homosexual people by those who simply fnd them "repugnant" or some other such negative or hateful view. It won't forever be legal, right, or acceptable to abuse or abridge the rights of those people (no matter how repugnant they may seem).

I can agree that many "Christians" see homosexuality as a "sin" (or something to be "fixed"), but that isn't the way all people (even Christians) view it. Fact is: Homosexuals won't ALL become straight/fixed, and they won't all be eliminated from this planet. People (especially Christian Fundamentalists) need to learn to deal with homosexual people, in ways that do not dehumanize or minimize their rights as human beings.

And the abuse/mistreatment of those homosexual people, is likely "repugnant" to a perfectly "just" God. He is fully aware that the hatred carried in the hearts of many who claim to be His servants, would surely CONDEMN them, if not for the very SAME grace he has afforded even the people who are "homosexual". This ridiculous idea, that God will put up with every terrible thing some uncompassionate believer decides to do to a homosexual, WILL be mitigated in due time. And it likely won't be anything that "Christians" or others will bring about, but a bonafide adjustment to the whole scenario (reality itself), by God Himself.

Some of the arguments on all sides, are just exercises of intellectual, social and spritual futility; I believe the answers will come... but not necessarily because of any of us who discuss the problem/s.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

Quote:
Repugnance of the same-gender sex act is not just vocalized in the Christian community.

So what? There are many things you say here that are "repugnant", but no one is seriously advocating that you SHUT YOUR MOUTH; or that LAWS be inacted to limit what you are saying.

You must not understand "hate crimes laws." Homosexuals are serious about their sex acts taking a more privileged status than religion. That is a fact.

For one, people don't usually have that kind of control over others; and they likely shouldn't have it.

Yet "sexual orientation" has found its way into law! You can talk about your gay lover at work and have photos all over the walls, but Christians cannot talk about what they hold dear. "That is insulting to others."

Melikio, I couldn't care less about degenerates hating Christians and outlawing our voices at work or in the public arena or in new laws or picketing our Churches and Colleges. The beauty inherent in the Christian faith will never be stomped out by those with a licentious and hedonistic belief system. The Gay Agenda is already fizzling within the community of the inner-city where it was birthed. Civil unions od adults should find a place within our laws, but marriage and family is immutably for normality. That will never change.

So what if it's "vocalized"?.

Perfect. The answer of the Gay Agenda to those that must submit to it.

People say all kinds of unkind and negative things about other people, and they aren't necessarily put down for it. But does that make it "RIGHT"? (That is the ongoing MORAL question.)

"Homophobia" is a hateful word used to silence any dissent of the Gay Agenda. It too is lacking in totality and maintains delusional thinking. Normal morality will always maintain its place in the order of things.

Remember, some "Christians" are bigoted, homophobes... and all the Scripture in the Bible doesn't change that one iota.

No good parent wants their children sought out and targeted for indoctrination.

People DO mistreat homosexual people in the name of God; deal with it, or it will be dealt with.

That threat is laughable. I'll email Rosie or Ellen or the Queer Eye for the Staright guy team, to see how bad thye are suffering. Millionaires all. Your persecution complex has no foundation. At least not the last time I watched any network TV or read any print media.

Get Voice of the martyr to see what happens to real victims of hate. The Gay Agenda plans for just as devious a suffering for Christians "THOUGH" it is far more bearable. All you have to do to save yourself from the Gay Agenda is to stay away from it. And that is relatively easier now that "it" is so open. "That's soooooo gay," Is used in a demeaning manor by the very generation targeted for mind control by progressives. Nature will not be mocked.

LAWS are often invented and thrown into places where there is a vacuum. One such place is the inhumane treatment of homosexual people by those who simply fnd them "repugnant" or some other such negative or hateful view.

There will be new laws coming shortly after gay unions are legalized by parents not wanting that lifestyle taught by force to their kndergarteners. You can bet on that.

It won't forever be legal, right, or acceptable to abuse or abridge the rights of those people (no matter how repugnant they may seem).

Marriage as a man and a woman. Even the ones ending in divorce. Deal with it that marriage and family being man-woman-children is the paradigm of forever and not an insult to those born with a homosexual orientation. It is not the fault of normal people that homosexuals are "born" with homosexuality as a congenital condition. Family and marriage IS man-woman-children.

"We hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT."

Those words are they Britishaphobic?"

I can agree that many "Christians" see homosexuality as a "sin" (or something to be "fixed"), but that isn't the way all people (even Christians) view it. Fact is: Homosexuals won't ALL become straight/fixed, and they won't all be eliminated from this planet. People (especially Christian Fundamentalists) need to learn to deal with homosexual people, in ways that do not dehumanize or minimize their rights as human beings.

The days when dealing with homosexuality are upon us like a Biblical plague. It is not the people proclaiming normailty that are the intolerant ones. The Gayists refuse to be civil.

And the abuse/mistreatment of those homosexual people, is likely "repugnant" to a perfectly "just" God. He is fully aware that the hatred carried in the hearts of many who claim to be His servants, would surely CONDEMN them, if not for the very SAME grace he has afforded even the people who are "homosexual".

Boo hoo. Except that your above statement about "even Christians"
(some) accepting socially and politically what they cannot find support for Biblically, tells a different story about who is intolerant os dissent.

This ridiculous idea, that God will put up with every terrible thing some uncompassionate believer decides to do to a homosexual, WILL be mitigated in due time. And it likely won't be anything that "Christians" or others will bring about, but a bonafide adjustment to the whole scenario (reality itself), by God Himself.

That's blasphemy.

Marriage was defined by Christ Jesus. Male and female. Not changed. Jesus is God and worshipped as God "by Christians."

Some of the arguments on all sides, are just exercises of intellectual, social and spritual futility; I believe the answers will come... but not necessarily because of any of us who discuss the problem/s.

"What" resolved the slavery isssue?

[1John2_26]

Again, these laws apply to the Israelites because of the Covenant they had with God required that they make themselves holy.

There is no indication that other peoples living at the time were expected fo follow these laws, institute these penalties, etc. Israel at that time could be described as a theocracy. The theocratic laws applied to those who were part of that specific belief system.

Now we see why God (Christ Jesus) chose Paul.

“ Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, ”- Ephesians 5:25-26

Husbands love your husbands? Wives love your wives?

No Christian can vote for or support the legalization same-gender "marriage?" while keeping to the immutable Christian view on the subject. Responding to legalizing homosexualization of public schools and legislation is just as hard.

But on this thread:

Romans 11
Gods Mercy on Israel
1I ask, then, has God rejected his people, the Jews? Of course not! Remember that I myself am a Jew, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
2No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you remember what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said, 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I alone am left, and now they are trying to kill me, too."

4And do you remember God's reply? He said, "You are not the only one left. I have seven thousand others who have never bowed down to Baal!"

5It is the same today, for not all the Jews have turned away from God. A few are being saved as a result of God's kindness in choosing them. 6And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is--free and undeserved.

7So this is the situation: Most of the Jews have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the rest were made unresponsive. 8As the Scriptures say,


"God has put them into a deep sleep.
To this very day he has shut their eyes so they do not see,
and closed their ears so they do not hear."[d]

9David spoke of this same thing when he said,


"Let their bountiful table become a snare,
a trap that makes them think all is well.
Let their blessings cause them to stumble.

10
Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see,
and let their backs grow weaker and weaker."
11Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! His purpose was to make his salvation available to the Gentiles, and then the Jews would be jealous and want it for themselves. 12Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when the Jews finally accept it.

13I am saying all of this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I lay great stress on this, 14for I want to find a way to make the Jews want what you Gentiles have, and in that way I might save some of them. 15For since the Jews' rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, how much more wonderful their acceptance will be. It will be life for those who were dead! 16And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their children will also be holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.

17But some of these branches from Abraham's tree, some of the Jews, have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, were grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in God's rich nourishment of his special olive tree. 18But you must be careful not to brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. Remember, you are just a branch, not the root.

19"Well," you may say, "those branches were broken off to make room for me." 20Yes, but remember--those branches, the Jews, were broken off because they didn't believe God, and you are there because you do believe. Don't think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. 21For if God did not spare the branches he put there in the first place, he won't spare you either.

22Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe to those who disobeyed, but kind to you as you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off. 23And if the Jews turn from their unbelief, God will graft them back into the tree again. He has the power to do it.

24For if God was willing to take you who were, by nature, branches from a wild olive tree and graft you into his own good tree--a very unusual thing to do--he will be far more eager to graft the Jews back into the tree where they belong.