The atonement

[Elijah John]

Does the atonement of Christ make any sense?

Consider the option that Christ is God. Why would God need to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite?

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Also, if Christ is not God but a man, how is that not human sacrifice, an abomination?

After all. even a perfect man is still a man, right?

[Checkpoint]

Does the atonement of Christ make any sense?

Consider the option that Christ is God. Why would God need to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite?

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Also, if Christ is not God but a man, how is that not human sacrifice, an abomination?

After all. even a perfect man is still a man, right?

It is not about whether or not Christ is God.

It is not about whether or not it will make sense to us.

It is not "human sacrifice, an abomination", but about a ransom made by a redeemer as announced by the angel of God; Matthew 1:20-21.

Romans 3:4

Absolutely not! Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that You may be justified in Your words, and prevail in Your judgments.�

[JehovahsWitness]

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Yes, All things are possible with God, we must not limit the Almighty with our human thinking. Something may seem impossible in our human terms but perfectly possible for the Almighty.

JW


RELATED POSTS

Is there scriptural support for the notion of a ransom sacrifice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 119#827119

Would Jesus need to "stay dead" for the Ransom to be valid?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#875280

[2timothy316]

Does the atonement of Christ make any sense?

Yes, for perfect justice.

Consider the option that Christ is God. Why would God need to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite?

"But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life..." Ex 21:23
There was a fatality that did occur. Adam gave up his perfect life so to Jehovah a perfect life is owed.

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Yes. If you want to clean a river do you clean where the river empties out to or the source of the filth? By Jesus covering the sin of Adam this makes every one that wishes to be clean the chance to be clean.

Also, if Christ is not God but a man, how is that not human sacrifice, an abomination?

Because the sacrifice saves so many and only a selfish person would deny the people they love everlasting life if it meant their death. This is not an abomination but a kindness.

After all. even a perfect man is still a man, right?

Yep. Yet a perfect man has the life to pay what no one else can pay. Thus any sacrifice of an imperfect man would be a waste, paying nothing and thus an abomination. Legally, by God's standards Jesus' death can't be enforced forever. Thus why Jesus is alive right now as I type. Death is nothing to God. Only those that lack fear of God fear death. Following God's commandments (which Jesus did) leads to life not death. Sin leads to death. Jesus' death will even make it possible for all of those that were put to death by way of sacrifice to false gods to live again.

[Tart]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Just some prophecy I was reading today that reminded me of this very question.

15 Truth is nowhere to be found,
and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey.
The Lord looked and was displeased
that there was no justice.
16 He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
so his own arm achieved salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.
(Isaiah 59)


I wonder sometimes, why do we need to believe in Jesus...? Why do we need a book to know God? But I think maybe it is so God can be acknowledged...

To be honest, I personally think Jesus was the prefect embodiment of truth. He showed us what righteousness is when he laid down his life for sinners, and was a method of conveying a perfect embodiment of truth.

But why is it such a big deal to acknowledge Christ? I don't claim to know of why God does everything He does, all I know is that it is a big deal. Confessing Christ has tremendous power in it, which I have experienced as the most powerful thing I have done in my entire life... Isn't that totally odd? I have done a lot of things in my life, like completed in Olympic Triathlons, I have picked my life up from living hopelessly in a tent, graduated with a Civil Engineering degree, and lots of other stuff... But simply confessing Jesus as my savior out ranks them all in how it effected my life... Kind of bizarre really...

(edit, I thought I should clarify, that isn't IN the Olympics... An "Olympic" triathlon is a kind of triathlon)

[Tart]

Perhaps because "no one is righteous, not even one"... "No one seeks God", Grace is a free gift by god we can't earn, where the first is last and last first, and leaders are to serve...

[myth-one.com]

Does the atonement of Christ make any sense?

Consider the option that Christ is God. Why would God need to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite?

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Also, if Christ is not God but a man, how is that not human sacrifice, an abomination?

After all. even a perfect man is still a man, right?

[Justin108]

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Yes, All things are possible with God, we must not limit the Almighty with our human thinking. Something may seem impossible in our human terms but perfectly possible for the Almighty.

JW

If all things are possible to the Almighty, then why the need for a sacrifice at all? Why not atone for our sins without a sacrifice?

And before you start posting links to other debates, don't bother. Either actually answer my question directly, or don't bother responding.

[2timothy316]

I wonder sometimes, why do we need to believe in Jesus...? Why do we need a book to know God? But I think maybe it is so God can be acknowledged...

Winner!

Yes, 'so God can be acknowledged'. That is exactly the reason and thank you for understanding this!

It always comes back to Satan's challenge. Who has the right to be acknowledged as sovereign ruler over everything? Who should be acknowledged as humanity's savior?

Look at how elaborate the actions and the extensive time God has taken to answer these questions. Amazingly, so many still don't see it... There is a scripture and I can't remember exactly what it said but it was along the lines of there are those that think Jehovah God's ways are bad. That His judgements are lesser than that of man's. This is dangerous thinking. Adam and Eve thought this way. Convincing themselves that the fruit was 'good for food' when according to God it most certainly was not.

So glad some do see that His ways are greater than our ways though. (Isaiah 55:9)

[Tart]

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Yes, All things are possible with God, we must not limit the Almighty with our human thinking. Something may seem impossible in our human terms but perfectly possible for the Almighty.

JW

If all things are possible to the Almighty, then why the need for a sacrifice at all? Why not atone for our sins without a sacrifice?

And before you start posting links to other debates, don't bother. Either actually answer my question directly, or don't bother responding.

Hi, i wanted to answer despite being directly linked to the conversation...

The sin sacrifice is actually a profound Judeo law... As far back as the early Israel tribal authority, laws were said to have been written down by Moses, inspired by God, and one law was the sin sacrifice... When ever anyone sinned, or broke a law, they would sacrifice a Ox, or a Sheep, or a Lamb at the temple for atonement...

The Old Testement isnt clear WHY they did this, but just that God commanded it. It is actually pretty bizarre... How can killing a Lamb forgive you for your sin?

See and then Jesus came, and he took Judaism and all its bizzareness and made sense of it... Se Jesus demonstrated righteousness by laying down his life for sinners. By praying for the forgiveness of those killing Him, it is the pinnacle of righteousness, and in doing so Jesus fulfilled God's destiny. Jesus fulfilled God's law, and the sin sacrifice was fulfilled... This was a demonstration of prophecy fulfillment, and a demonstration of perfect righteousness...

If you have questions, one book I might recommend is the book of Hebrews...