Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4304
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #1

Post by Mithrae »

There are numerous passages in the gospels which seem to clearly show that Jesus expected his followers to forsake everything to follow him, even to the point of taking no money or spare clothes with them as they preached. It could be argued that his instructions to the twelve and to the seventy-two were particularly extreme lessons in living by faith, rather than universal commands: In fact there were even some followers of Jesus such as Mary and Martha of Bethany who seemingly continued living in their own home, though perhaps this too was an extreme case rather than universal model. But even that example - a household which was apparently open for thirteen men to use and stay in whenever they passed through the town - does not seem to bear much resemblance to how Christianity is commonly perceived and practiced today.
  • Mark 8:34 And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 35 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? 37 For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels. 9:1 And Jesus was saying to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.â€�


    Luke 14:25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33 So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
    34 “Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned? 35 It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.�


    Matthew 6:19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
    22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
    24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

    25 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
These are just a few of the passages in which Jesus' teaching to forsake all seem to be clearly expressed. In fact the passage in Matthew seems to pretty clearly say that if you're working for money, you cannot be working for God at the same time! It's an extreme and radical teaching, but it does seem to be clearly and unambiguously taught in numerous different ways throughout the gospels - even some passages in John.

My earlier attempt to portray a more human side of Mithrae's life and perplexities ran afoul of the debate topic rules and was rightly moved to random rambling, so I'll keep this nice and simple:
Did Jesus really teach that to be his follower, you must forsake all your possessions?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Mithrae wrote:These are just a few of the passages in which Jesus' teaching to forsake all seem to be clearly expressed.
If Christians were to literally give away everything they possed they would have to walk about naked, since clothes and and food are possessions. Jesus taught by example and didn't just say but showed his disciples what he meant, yet Jesus possessed clothes and wore them (he evidently even possessed a coat of good quality). Even if Christians were to live entirely from the charity of others, when someone gives you something (food or clothing) it passes from their possession to your own.

Further Jesus told his disciples that if someone asking for our outer garment (or coat) they should give their inner garment too. He made no mention of giving away their sandles scalf and donkey. Evidently Peter owned a house even after becoming a disciple, the bible speaks of female disciples of Jesus supporting his ministry from their own resources, the donkey Jesus rode into Jerusalem was probably owned by a disciple. Jesus confinded his mother, Mary into the care of his friend John who took her to HIS home and the women that anointed Jesus body evidently had enough money to buy spices and kept those spices in their own possession long enough to use them for what they wanted rather than to buy them and immediately give them away. There is therefore ample evidence Jesus himself and his disciples kept at least some of their possessions and did not literally give everything they owned away.
Since the disciples and Jesus didn't walk around naked, they did not give away everything they possed; reasonable people capable of critical thinking conclude that Jesus was not saying that all his disciples had to give away literally everything they owned.



RELATED POSTS
Should Jesus words about abandoning "all things" be taken literally?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 89#p908689

Did Jesus stipulate that all his followers should renounce ownership of all material possessions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 20#p835720

Did Jesus expect his disciples to give up absolutely everything they owned?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p908161

Would the "Acts model" allow for Christian ownership of houses?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p980613

Is there proof JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are the religion that put spiritual things ahead of working for money?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 85#p909585

Did Jesus command all his disciples renounce employment and all private ownership.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p980601

To read more please go to other posts related to...

CHRISTIANITY , MONEY & WEALTH and ...CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12235
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #3

Post by Elijah John »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mithrae wrote:These are just a few of the passages in which Jesus' teaching to forsake all seem to be clearly expressed.
If Christians were to literally give away everything they possed they would have to walk about naked, since clothes and and food are possessions. Jesus taught by example and didn't just say but showed his disciples what he meant, yet Jesus possessed clothes and wore them (he evidently even possessed a coat of good quality). Even if Christians were to live entirely from the charity of others, when someone gives you something (food or clothing) it passes from their possession to your own.

Further Jesus told his disciples that if someone asking for our outer garment (or coat) they should give their inner garment too. He made no mention of giving away their sandles scalf and donkey. Evidently Peter owned a house even after becoming a disciple, the bible speaks of female disciples of Jesus supporting his ministry from their own resources, the donkey Jesus rode into Jerusalem was probably owned by a disciple. Jesus confinded his mother, Mary into the care of his friend John who took her to HIS home and the women that anointed Jesus body evidently had enough money to buy spices and kept those spices in their own possession long enough to use them for what they wanted rather than to buy them and immediately give them away. There is therefore ample evidence Jesus himself and his disciples kept at least some of their possessions and did not literally give everything they owned away.
Since the disciples and Jesus didn't walk around naked, they did not give away everything they possed; reasonable people capable of critical thinking conclude that Jesus was not saying that all his disciples had to give away literally everything they owned.
Seems that Jesus then, once again, was being hyperbolic in his statements, poetic and not literal.

Or, another possibility, (if Jesus was being literal) is that here, and in other statements he was preaching an "interim ethic", suitable perhaps for the impending arrival of the apocalypse*, but clearly not practical for the long run.

(*which Jesus, Paul, the author of Hebrews and some others seems to have believed would occur in the lifetime of the apostles)
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:Or, another possibility, (is Jesus was being literal) is that here, and in other statements he was preaching an "interim ethic"
Definition of interim ethics
an interpretation of the ethical teachings of Jesus as principles enunciated for governing the conduct of the disciples during the anticipated brief span of time before the coming of the second advent and the passing of the terrestrial world
It seems to me you have used an oxymoron. If I understand correctly "interim ethics" are principles, principles are NOT literal or absolute. Saying Jesus was here teaching a literal principle is at the most an oxymoron and at the very least redundant since even if the two could be combined you would still have to be NAKED while extracting the principle of your nudity. And since as I pointed out in my[post #2 above, neither Jesus nor his first century disciples gave literally everything they possesed away, it seems more reasonable to concude Jesus was not speaking literally and in the absolute.

Thanks,


JW

To read more please go to other posts related to...

CHRISTIANITY , MONEY & WEALTH and ... JW's FINANCES
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4304
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #5

Post by Mithrae »

Elijah John wrote:Seems that Jesus then, once again, was being hyperbolic in his statements, poetic and not literal.

Or, another possibility, (if Jesus was being literal) is that here, and in other statements he was preaching an "interim ethic", suitable perhaps for the impending arrival of the apocalypse*, but clearly not practical for the long run.

(*which Jesus, Paul, the author of Hebrews and some others seems to have believed would occur in the lifetime of the apostles)
This idea of a now-defunct interim ethic doesn't make sense to me: If this teaching to forsake all and not worry about one's future upkeep was not practical, it would be impractical even for a few weeks or months, never mind decades or a whole lifetime. But if somehow it did work for decade after decade - the gospels were written some thirty to sixty years after Jesus' death - there's no very obvious reason it would suddenly stop being working some time after that.

It's easy to dismiss some singular verse or passage as not literal, but when the same message is taught again and again in several different ways by multiple different gospel authors, such a view starts to look very suspect. Jesus himself explicitly said on multiple occasions that his teaching was hard - in fact, impossible for mere men (Mark 10:27) - so assuming that because it's hard he didn't really mean what he said would be nonsensical.
Last edited by Mithrae on Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4304
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #6

Post by Mithrae »

JehovahsWitness wrote: If Christians were to literally give away everything they possed they would have to walk about naked, since clothes and and food are possessions. Jesus taught by example and didn't just say but showed his disciples what he meant, yet Jesus possessed clothes and wore them (he evidently even possessed a coat of good quality). Even if Christians were to live entirely from the charity of others, when someone gives you something (food or clothing) it passes from their possession to your own.
If he taught by example, then almost no Christians follow it: He had no home or paid employment, never mind nice cars and big screen TVs. He sent the apostles out without a purse or coins or even a change of clothes. He taught them that they should pray for and rely on God's provision even for their daily bread.

There's also a bit of a difference between giving up all that you own now, and never ever coming into possession of anything in the future. Obviously Jesus never said that clothes or food or even money are evil in themselves, only that working for money precludes working for God, that accumulating possessions on earth prevents treasure in heaven. He and his disciples had a money bag, and he let the thief Judas keep track of it for them (John 12:6). The lesson seems to be one of constantly letting go of whatever possessions come your way in order to be constantly trusting in God's provision, rather than refusing to accept them in the first place.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Further Jesus told his disciples that if someone asking for our outer garment (or coat) they should give their inner garment too. He made no mention of giving away their sandles scalf and donkey. Evidently Peter owned a house even after becoming a disciple, the bible speaks of female disciples of Jesus supporting his ministry from their own resources, the donkey Jesus rode into Jerusalem was probably owned by a disciple. Jesus confinded his mother, Mary into the care of his friend John who took her to HIS home and the women that anointed Jesus body evidently had enough money to buy spices and kept those spices in their own possession long enough to use them for what they wanted rather than to buy them and immediately give them away. There is therefore ample evidence Jesus himself and his disciples kept at least some of their possessions and did not literally give everything they owned away.
When we've got the explicit and universal teachings of Jesus himself repeated again and again in different ways by different gospel authors on the one hand, looking instead towards fragmentary reports of how other people acted is not necessarily the most sound approach. Surely if those other folks' actions don't line up with what Jesus actually taught, the conclusion would have to be that they were doing it wrong rather than struggling to twist Jesus' words to fit others' actions?

That said, few if any of these cases seem to provide clear counter-examples to his teaching to forsake everything. Some women followed Jesus and cared for his needs (Mark 15:41), which implies nothing about material possessions; others seem to have financially supported him "out of their own means," but quite probably they were married (Joanna is specifically described as wife to Herod's household manager in Luke 8:3) and in that culture Jesus' teaching on divorce required them to remain with their husbands, so they simply did what they could.

The "house of Simon and Andrew" (Mark 1:29) does not necessarily mean a house which Peter retained (or ever had) personal ownership of - it could have housed an extended family, as implied by the presence of his mother-in-law. But this was seemingly mere days or weeks after he'd first met Jesus in any case. Later on Peter lived in Jerusalem, in Joppa, in Antioch and in Rome, taking his wife with him according to Paul - there's nothing to suggest he retained ownership of a house in Capernaum. Quite the opposite, Peter said to Jesus that "We have left everything to follow you" (Mark 10:28). So by the same token, with the reasonable assumption that the beloved disciple was the apostle John, obviously taking Jesus' mother into his home needn't be the same thing as accommodating her in a privately-owned building. In fact the word 'home' does not appear in the Greek of the verse - it's simply from that hour the disciple took her into his own.

About the best counter-example I know of is the home of Mary and Martha of Bethany, who evidently had Jesus' love and approval and, since they seemingly lived together, might not have had husbands. Of course it's possible that they (and their brother Lazarus) were all still living in their parents' home; or that one of the sisters had a husband it was his house. But even if they themselves owned it, we're still talking about a home which was apparently open to thirteen men and their female helpers - or however many of the troupe could be accommodated there - for at least a week before Jesus' death and presumably whenever previously they'd passed through the town.

In other words it looks more like a communal property model along the lines of what's described in Acts 2 and 4, forsaking personal ownership and living frugally in community, selling all property which isn't specifically needed and sharing the rest alike. I'm really not sure how well that Acts model lines up with Jesus' claim that “foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head� and “do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink.� One might argue that it tries to follow the spirit of Jesus' radical teaching in the gospels, adapted to the more pragmatic needs of a growing community - which would imply that Jesus got it at least partially wrong - or perhaps there's some way of reconciling them that I'm not seeing. But for most of its history the church has been unwilling to preach or practice even that half measure compromise to what Jesus actually taught!

liamconnor
Prodigy
Posts: 3170
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 1:18 pm

Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #7

Post by liamconnor »

[Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

Everything in any statement ever made needs to be understood in context; whether at work or in an ancient document.

If the earliest literature depicting Jesus showed that Jesus renounced everything including clothing (i.e., he was a nudist that never ate) then it would be legitimate to take his statements literally to the point of discrete materials; but this is not the context. Jesus elsewhere allows--indeed, commands--his disciples to take on their journey certain belongings.

The best interpretation is that people are to hold their possessions lightly; to be aware that they are gifts from God and do not define them, and may very well disappear.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 6 by Mithrae]

Are you suggesting that Jesus never possessed any clothes or food?
Mithrae wrote: He sent the apostles out without a purse or coins or even a change of clothes
♦ Yes, but did they posses the clothes they did wear? If so, they had possessions which they hadn't given away.
Mithrae wrote:Obviously Jesus never said that clothes or food or even money are evil in themselves ...


♦ There is no "obviously" about it, if Jesus words are to be taken literally and in the absolute food and clothes are possessions. Food is even worse because if you EAT it you cannot then obey instructions to give it away, so the act of eating the food in your possession becomes an act of disobedience. You take the words literally or you don't, you cannot have you cake and eat it (pun indended).

Maybe I misunderstood your point, I thought you were arguing for a literal interpreation of Jesus words and that nobody was to have ANY possessions. Is that not what you are saying?
Mithrae wrote: So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
♦ You were the one that highlighted Jesus words above. Does ALL mean ALL or not? If its literally "all" then Jesus was a hypocrit because he had in his possession a good quality coat when he died and he hadn't given it away.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:52 am, edited 6 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Mithrae wrote: In fact there were even some followers of Jesus such as Mary and Martha of Bethany who seemingly continued living in their own home,
Why would Jesus love a family that were disobeying his explicit command to give everything they owned away? Just because someone is hospitable does that negate the fact that you have a possession of a house?
Mithrae wrote:The lesson seems to be one of constantly letting go of whatever possessions come your way [...] rather than refusing to accept them in the first place.
♦ Why would you accept something if your calling meant to have no possessions? Wouldn't it be faster not to accept anything ?

♦ So you are saying a christian can have possessions as long as they were constantly giving them away. How long could you keep a possession? 24 hours? 48? A year? A decade?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4304
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #10

Post by Mithrae »

liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

Everything in any statement ever made needs to be understood in context; whether at work or in an ancient document.

If the earliest literature depicting Jesus showed that Jesus renounced everything including clothing (i.e., he was a nudist that never ate) then it would be legitimate to take his statements literally to the point of discrete materials; but this is not the context. Jesus elsewhere allows--indeed, commands--his disciples to take on their journey certain belongings.

The best interpretation is that people are to hold their possessions lightly; to be aware that they are gifts from God and do not define them, and may very well disappear.
If you gave up 99% of what you owned in January and followed through with your intention to give up the other 1% (and more) in February - and then gave up even more in March, because people just keep giving you stuff! - then it would be completely accurate and literal to say that you have given up all, forsaken everything you owned.

What you and JW seem to be trying to do is argue that because Jesus was wearing clothes in March, he had not 'really' forsaken everything and so followers of Jesus are okay to own a car and house with nice furnishings and appliances as long as they can imagine themselves giving them up in their heart. As far as I can tell that's not understanding the passage in context, it's just wildly distorting what is clearly written there. The context of that verse is the warning that would-be followers must count the cost, knowing that it would likely to be far too high for many people; and that would-be followers whose lives are not clearly and radically different from others around them are like salt without taste and fit only to be cast aside. The context of that verse does not provide any reassurance that 'give up all your possessions' was just some kind of meaningless hyperbole; on the contrary, the bits both before and after it provide even more strenuous warning about the deadly seriousness, in Luke's view, of what Jesus was teaching!

Post Reply