Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

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Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

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Post by Mithrae »

There are numerous passages in the gospels which seem to clearly show that Jesus expected his followers to forsake everything to follow him, even to the point of taking no money or spare clothes with them as they preached. It could be argued that his instructions to the twelve and to the seventy-two were particularly extreme lessons in living by faith, rather than universal commands: In fact there were even some followers of Jesus such as Mary and Martha of Bethany who seemingly continued living in their own home, though perhaps this too was an extreme case rather than universal model. But even that example - a household which was apparently open for thirteen men to use and stay in whenever they passed through the town - does not seem to bear much resemblance to how Christianity is commonly perceived and practiced today.
  • Mark 8:34 And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 35 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? 37 For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels. 9:1 And Jesus was saying to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.â€�


    Luke 14:25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33 So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
    34 “Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned? 35 It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.�


    Matthew 6:19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
    22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
    24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

    25 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
These are just a few of the passages in which Jesus' teaching to forsake all seem to be clearly expressed. In fact the passage in Matthew seems to pretty clearly say that if you're working for money, you cannot be working for God at the same time! It's an extreme and radical teaching, but it does seem to be clearly and unambiguously taught in numerous different ways throughout the gospels - even some passages in John.

My earlier attempt to portray a more human side of Mithrae's life and perplexities ran afoul of the debate topic rules and was rightly moved to random rambling, so I'll keep this nice and simple:
Did Jesus really teach that to be his follower, you must forsake all your possessions?

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Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #11

Post by Mithrae »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mithrae wrote: In fact there were even some followers of Jesus such as Mary and Martha of Bethany who seemingly continued living in their own home,
Why would Jesus love a family that were disobeying his explicit command to give everything they owned away? Just because someone is hospitable does that negate the fact that you have a possession of a house?
Mithrae wrote:The lesson seems to be one of constantly letting go of whatever possessions come your way [...] rather than refusing to accept them in the first place.
♦ Why would you accept something if your calling meant to have no possessions? Wouldn't it be faster not to accept anything ?

♦ So you are saying a christian can have possessions as long as they were constantly giving them away. How long could you keep a possession? 24 hours? 48? A year? A decade?
Why did you snip the middle of that sentence above? "The lesson seems to be one of constantly letting go of whatever possessions come your way in order to be constantly trusting in God's provision, rather than refusing to accept them in the first place."

This has got nothing to do with what I am saying or questions that I should answer. Jesus clearly said that his followers must give up all their own possessions, as I've commented on further in my reply to Liam above. He and his disciples also had clothes and staffs and a communal money bag entrusted to a thief. He also taught his disciples to pray and rely on God for their daily bread, to "not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink." Each of these points is 'gospel truth,' quite literally, and the underlying theme is hardly obscure: Trust in God rather than our own efforts.

Hoarding up possessions and carefully planning for future years is not trusting in God - obviously. Working for money is not trusting in God - obviously. Not only are these both obvious in themselves, but Jesus explicitly taught against both of them. However accepting whatever food or clothes or shelter comes your way while working for the kingdom of God clearly is trusting in God; again obvious, and again Jesus explicitly taught that these things would be provided for his followers. In fact he even said that those who are faithful in little can be trusted with much, and that they'd received a hundredfold of what they had forsaken. Is that so they could start hoarding again? Or so they could again give it all up in service to God and their fellow human beings?

The notion that Jesus would have allowed his followers to own a private home and nice furnishings cannot be reconciled with either what he taught nor with the example he set as far as I can see. It can't even be reconciled with the seemingly watered-down example of frugal communal living set by many of his earliest followers, those of "little faith" in whom he constantly despaired but loved nonetheless!


It's also interesting that while I posted substantial passages from each of the three synoptic gospels in the OP, all the attention and fixation seems to be on that one single word "all." Admittedly I highlighted it in the quotes and thread title, but it's almost as if trying to prove that "all" does not mean an absolute and instant 100% is a way of circumventing that and all the other teachings which seem to convey the same theme; if it doesn't mean an absolute and instant 100% then we can pretend that giving a quarter of our weekly income is even more than God could reasonably expect!

Could I invite your thoughts on some of these other teachings, from just these three passages alone:
  • 1 > If anyone wishes to follow Jesus, he must deny himself and take up his own painful death; for whoever wishes to save his life will lose it
    2 > There were some of those who were standing there who would not taste death until they saw the kingdom of God after it had come with power
    3 > If anyone comes to Jesus, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be his disciple; and again, whoever does not carry his own cross cannot be his disciple
    4 > Salt is good, but if even salt has become tasteless it is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear
    5 > Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also
    6 > If your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
    7 > No one can serve two masters; you cannot work for God if you're working for money
    8 > For this reason, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on

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Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Mithrae wrote: "This has got nothing to do with what I am saying or questions that I should answer. Jesus clearly said that his followers must give up all their own possessions,
♦ All means ALL does it not? Why do you exclude food and clothes?
  • NO EXCEPTIONS Jesus didn't say give up all "EXCEPT if someone gave those things to you. Jesus didn't say you can keep your house if you are hospitiable and welcome 13 or more visitors, he said give away ALL you possess.
    ♦ Why was Jesus caught in possession of a coat which was of such good quality that Roman soldiers cast lots for it? (You suggest that possessions should be given away instantly, "instant" is not an hour later or a day or month later).

    ♦ If Jesus words are to be taken literally and in the absolute food and clothes are possessions are they not?

    ♦ Do you not come into possession of an item if it is given to you? To obey the command would not then have to GIVE what you have been given AWAY and not keep it?

    ♦ Is communal or inherited possession (of a house or a donkey or a money purse) not still POSSESSION?

    ♦ Why would Jesus love a family that were disobeying his explicit command to give everything they owned away? (Just because someone is hospitable does that negate the fact that you are in possession of a house?)

    ♦ Why does the bible report his disciples were in possession of at least one sword and had staffs in their possession?
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Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Mithrae wrote:If you gave up 99% of what you owned in January and followed through with your intention to give up the other 1% (and more) in February - and then gave up even more in March
♦ Since when does ALL mean 99%? All means 100%?!

Keeping 1% (with the intention of giving it away later) is not obeying a command to give away "all" you have.
Mithrae wrote: If you gave up 99% of what you owned in January and followed through with your intention to give up the other 1% (and more) in February [...] then it would be completely accurate and literal to say that you have given up all, forsaken everything you owned.
Mithrae wrote:... if it doesn't mean an absolute and instant 100% then we can pretend ... {snip irrelevant}

Are you therefore claiming that "all" DOES mean an absolute (meaning no exceptions) and instant (meaning not keeping for any period of time) and 100% (meaning not 99%).


JW
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Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

duplicate
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Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #15

Post by Mithrae »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mithrae wrote: "This has got nothing to do with what I am saying or questions that I should answer. Jesus clearly said that his followers must give up all their own possessions,
♦ All means ALL does it not? Why do you exclude food and clothes? Is it ALL or is it SOME?

Is there a reason you don't answer my questions?
I did answer those questions in the post to Liam, to which I referred you. Yes, all means all. Are you honestly confused about that?
  • If you gave up 99% of what you owned in January and followed through with your intention to give up the other 1% (and more) in February - and then gave up even more in March, because people just keep giving you stuff! - then it would be completely accurate and literal to say that you have given up all, forsaken everything you owned.

    What you and JW seem to be trying to do is argue that because Jesus was wearing clothes in March, he had not 'really' forsaken everything and so followers of Jesus are okay to own a car and house with nice furnishings and appliances as long as they can imagine themselves giving them up in their heart.
So...
"Why was Jesus caught in possession of a coat which was of such good quality that Roman soldiers cast lots for it?"
Already answered - he had given everything away, and received more to give away again. This was when he set the example of giving away his very life, and you're fixating on his coat?

"Did the disciples not posses the clothes they did wear? If so, they had possessions which they hadn't given away."
Already answered - they had given everything away, and received more to give away again.

"If Jesus words are to be taken literally and in the absolute food and clothes are possessions."
Already answered. I really don't know much about your views, but what it looks like when you keep asking the same things that have already been answered is that you simply don't like the answer, so you want to keep pretending that you've discovered some critical flaw that makes it okay to circumvent the teaching entirely by pretending that it was somehow 'figurative' or 'hyperbole.'



Since you've decided not to comment on the substance of all the other verses which express this same theme, but instead choose to fixate on persuading yourself that there must be some kind of loophole in that single word 'all,' I will comment on one of them myself.

6 > If your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! (Matthew 6:22-23)

As I commented in my more 'human Mithrae' attempt at a thread, once upon a time I myself gave up all my possessions with the intention of following in Jesus' footsteps, but failed to follow through and it was just a few months afterwards that I lost my faith (such as it had been!). This verse above is sandwiched in between "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" and "No one can serve two masters; for he will hate the one and love the other... You cannot serve God and wealth." So in talking about our eyes and seeing, Jesus/Matthew was apparently referring to the worldview or framework through which we perceive our lives and circumstances: Either one of earthy treasure or one of the kingdom of God.

As with his comments about taking the log out of our own eyes before condemning others, this verse seems to be an emphasis on getting first things first. If we're still looking at the world through that framework of working for money rather than God, how are we going to get anything right?

And really that's about the best answer I can give to your last question about 24 or 48 hours' ownership at this point: You're asking for some kind of details or legalistic particulars about step #3 or 4, when I have never even (successfully) taken step #1 and so far you seem not to be acknowledging that Jesus even taught step #1 to begin with, despite it being clearly expressed in a multitude of different ways and passages in all four gospels! If I were to guess I'd say that looking for legalistic particulars about it is missing the point entirely. Jesus said that those who are faithful in little can be trusted with much, and that they'd receive a hundredfold of what they had forsaken: If someone is genuinely living by faith and working for the kingdom of God like that, arbitrarily declaring that they must have precisely seven days' turnover on all that God provides them with would be absurd. Again, what it looks like is some kind of attempt to find a loophole in the teaching rather than beginning with the clear and obvious and going from there.

If and when we ever actually decide to be disciples of Jesus, then we'll have a much better idea of how to handle those finer details. Until then - at least according to this gospel teaching - while we're looking at the world through materialist eyes even the light within us is darkness!

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Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Mithrae wrote: "Why was Jesus caught in possession of a coat which was of such good quality that Roman soldiers cast lots for it?"
Already answered - he had given everything away, and received more to give away again.
Mithrae wrote:Already answered - they had given everything away, and received more to give away again.
See post on INSTANT: You have not addressed this issue
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 510#908510
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Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #17

Post by Mithrae »

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm not going to be strung along answering every question twice and then being ordered to go back and check all the revisions you decided to make in the interim, especially when you are so studiously ignoring most of what I've written ;)

In fact quibbling over precise details would be a little trivial when it seems that you have largely agreed with me:
JehovahsWitness wrote:Jesus didn't say you can keep your house if you are hospitiable and welcome 13 or more visitors, he said give away ALL you possess.
JehovahsWitness wrote:Since when does ALL mean 99%? All means 100%?!
So how many Christians do you know who obey his teaching?
And if they don't obey it, why? This was one of the (few?) things he said that was absolutely non-negotiable: "None of you can be My disciple unless..."

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Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

INSTANT or LATER?
Mithrae wrote: [Jesus] had given everything away, and received more to give away again.
Mithrae wrote:... if it doesn't mean an absolute and instant 100% then we can pretend ... {snip irrelevant}
  • ♦ Since when does "instant" (your word not mine) mean "later"? He was captured in possession of the coat, if he had instantly (your word not mine) given the coat away this could not have happened!

ALL OR SOME? LITERAL OR PRINCIPLE?
Mithrae wrote: I'd say that looking for legalistic particulars about it is missing the point entirely.
And is that point absolute, instant, 100% or partial, one month later, 99%?
Mithrae wrote:So how many Christians do you know who obey his teaching?
We have yet to establish what "those teachings" are. that is the point of debate.

You seem to shy from stating catagorically that Jesus was speaking literally, in the absolute about INSTANTLY (your word not mine) giving 100% all ones possessions. You have implied it but you have yet to state the above.
Was Jesus advocating giving absolutely 100% of anything that came into ones possession (by whatever means) instantly away?
Could it be that attributing the above meaning to Jesus' words we could find in scripture many instances that demonstrate this reading to be false?
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Romans 14:8

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Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #19

Post by Mithrae »

JehovahsWitness wrote: INSTANT or LATER?
Mithrae wrote: [Jesus] had given everything away, and received more to give away again.
Mithrae wrote:... if it doesn't mean an absolute and instant 100% then we can pretend ... {snip irrelevant}
  • ♦ Since when does "instant" (your word not mine) mean "later"? He was captured in possession of the coat, if he had instantly (your word not mine) given the coat away this could not have happened!
There seems to be some confusion here. Jesus told his disciples to give up all their possessions; he also told them that their needs of food and clothing would be provided by God and (in one of the many other passages that this teaching is expressed) that everyone who had forsaken their possessions would receive a hundred times as much:
  • Mark 10:21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.â€� 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

    23 And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!� 24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.� 26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, “Then who can be saved?� 27 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.�

    28 Peter began to say to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You.� 29 Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake, 30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last, first.�
Now, you don't think that Jesus was telling people "follow me and pretend to give up your possessions so that you can become a hundred times richer," do you?

Maybe you do, I don't know - that's certainly what some popular preachers say :? But I think the far more probable and obvious answer is that anyone who receives a hundred times or even twice as much were expected to keep giving it all up in service to God and their fellow human beings. After all, as he said in another passage, those who've been faithful in small things will be faithful with more also. After giving up all their possessions, Jesus' followers would later have other possessions - perhaps a lot more - for days or maybe even weeks until they found out where and to whom they should be given.

You are the one who seems to be struggling with this concept, not me. You seem to think that because Jesus and his followers had some few possessions in a particular moment, that somehow invalidates the teaching of forsaking all possessions. No, you didn't use the word 'instant,' but that is clearly the view you are supporting. In fact you explicitly said that "Keeping 1% (with the intention of giving it away later) is not obeying a command to give away "all" you have." In other words, you have explicitly declared that if it's not instant, it's not obeying the command.

You are the one inserting the instantaneous concept into the command, and now fixating on that single point you've inserted which isn't even found in the bible passages!


JehovahsWitness wrote:
Mithrae wrote:So how many Christians do you know who obey his teaching?
We have yet to establish what "those teachings" are. that is the point of debate.
So when you said -
"NO EXCEPTIONS Jesus didn't say give up all "EXCEPT if someone gave those things to you. Jesus didn't say you can keep your house if you are hospitiable and welcome 13 or more visitors, he said give away ALL you possess."
- you were not being entirely straightforward in expressing your views? If you didn't mean it, what were you trying to accomplish by saying that this is what Jesus taught?

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Re: Did Jesus say you must forsake all?

Post #20

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 19 by Mithrae]

Thank you for your post but it STILL do not see an answer to this question:
♦ Was Jesus advocating giving absolutely 100% of literally everything that comes into ones possession (by whatever means) away?
This is a simple enough question.




Mithrae wrote:You are the one inserting the instantaneous concept into the command,
♦ Are you claiming you did not type the word "instant" in our exchange?

♦ What point were you trying to make with the word "instant" in the following supposition?
Mithrae wrote:... if it doesn't mean an absolute and instant 100% then we can pretend ... {snip }

JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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