When the Bible does not promote or condone, then what?

[micatala]

This thread is prompted by the often-made statement.

I have asked you to provide any evidence "from the Bible" (since you have offered that you are a priest), where sodomy/perderasty-homosexuality-Gay, is celebrated, supported, condoned, promoted, or preached as acceptable, anywhere in the New Testament

The implication is that, since the Bible nowhere promotes, condones, or 'celebrates' homosexuality, this is further indication it should be condemned.

Question for debate:

Is this a valid conclusion?

Are there other examples of behaviors, views, etc. that are not promoted, condoned, or celebrated in the Bible, but that Christians typically do not condemn?

[melikio]

JUST because one does not like the TRUTH IT DOES NOT MAKE IT ANY LESS TRUTH >> THAT is THE BOTTOM LINE>

No, what you said is "perceived" as the bottom line, in your own mind; I can relate to that and accept that you have your own "opinions".

What is THE "truth"? (Do you have it? Either live by it, or PROVE it.)

as for LOVE OF GOD OR OUR LOVE FOR GOD'S PEOPLE???????

Some Christians enjoy talking about how they "love" those they would clearly mistreat. (Been there, seen that and suffered because of it. If you want to call that "Christian", go ahead.)

WELL I BELIEVE GOD HAS MADE PEOPLE BECAUSE MAN AND WOMAN ARE PEOPLE>

I believe that too. (I can't prove it, but the structure of my "faith" allows me to believe it, as much as it is possible for me to believe it.) Still, I don't have "perfect" faith about anything, and I don't believe the same things that every other "Christian" DOES believe.

AND GOD HAS CREATED US AS DIFFERENT FOR A REASON AND FOR HIS PURPOSE> IF YOU do not agree take it up with GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I DID argue about it with "God"; where were YOU, when I was on my knees for over 37 years asking for answers about the very things we have discussed and debated (on this forum)?

What do you "know" He has told me or anyone else? Is it possible that God can tell an individual something, that others either do not know or understand?

ARGUE with HIM ALL YOU WANT TO .

I do NOT wish to argue anything about one's "faith"; you can't prove a damned thing, nor can I. I will just remind YOU and any other human being, that it is HIGHLY questionable, just how much authority and autonomy you might have over another person's life. It is also questionable just how far you can go to AFFECT another, before you yourself (or anyone else) steps outside of the actual will of the Creator.

BUT I GUARRENTEE YOU HE will not change HIS MIND ON WHAT SIN IS!!!

Most of my years have been spent trying to understand where I fit into the GRAND SCHEME of things; not about seeking control over what happens to be.

JUST SO ALL CAN CONTINUE IN THEIR SIN AND NOT HAVE ANY CONDEMNATION when THEY ALREADY KNOW that what they are doing is wrong in the first place.

And I won't be there judging YOU, if/when the Lord runs down the list of sins you yourself are responsible for. Really, you don't know the grace God has afforded you; even to this point in your life. I know I don't take it for granted (at least I try not to).

THOSE THAT HAVE BELIEVED IN HIM ARE NOT CONDEMNED,, BUT ALL THAT HAVE NOT BELIEVED ARE CONDEMNED ALREADY......

Ok. I can't do a darned thing about THAT.

GOD IS NOT GOING TO GO BACK TO YESTERDAY and CHANGE THE WORD SO ALL IN YESTERDAY CAN BE BLAMELESS.

If He's counting DEAD sparrows; then He understands what I've been through, far better than any Christians claiming "truth" on the internet. I'm not "blameless", and never imagined I was; saved-by-grace, is my ONLY hope. Beyond that, I can't fix "anything".

HE WILL NOT GO INTO TOMORROW AND CHANGE THE WORD SO AS TO HAVE THISE SINS DISAPEAR TOMORROW SO ALL THAT DO THEM DO NOT GET ACCOUNTEED FOR THOSE SINS.

Perhaps He is STILL waiting for people to really understand THE WORD; so that things like the DEHUMANIZING of people who just happen to be HOMOSEXUAL (etc.) aren't treated like HE was (overall), but more like the woman who was accused of being a "harlot". You see, it's VERY easy to be poised to knock the holy-CRAP out of someone for missing or breaking a rule, and a LOT HARDER to love those who hate/challenge you.

YET TODAY!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps not one of the things about God that we truly understand changes; but we can have a LOT MORE arguments about what it is that we really "understand" about Him (or His actual will).

YOU AND MANY MANY MANY MORE HAVE A CHANCE TO CHOOSE WHEHER TO HAVE SEX WITH THAT GUY TONIGHT THAT YOU ARE WITH IF IT IS NOT A HUSBAND OF YOURS>

What are YOU planning on YOUR specific calendar of human activities? I hope God approves of your every thought and planned action. Even so, you have the grace to live freely; at least I won't be lurking around the corner to enforce HIS will upon YOU.

and THOSE THAT ARE CONTEMPLATING HAVING SEX WITH THE SAME SEX???

What if they just FALL or happen to be "fallen"; where does that say yo have anything to change that, except to help them (if you can) or to earnestly pray for them? You certainly don't have the power or authority to change or control who they are as people; that is the sole providence of God Himself.

THEY CAN CHOOSE TO NOT>

Let them choose. Set your example, and see what God can/will do with the faith you possess. You cannot and should not try to control another human being.

ALSO.. CHOICE TODAY DO IT GODS WAY OR FORGET IT ..........SAME with ANY OTHER SIN ONE MIGHT be GOING TO CONTEMPLATE DOING JUST because they CONSIDER IT OK WHEN IT IS ALREADY KNOWN TO BE NOT RIGHT AND GOOD TO DO!!!!

After many years of struggling with my sexual-orientation, and learning more about practical application of SELF-CONTROL than many Bible-quoting, biblical literalists I've encountered in life... your words ring kind of "hollow" (to me). I know what you are trying to say, but the practical meaning of what you say, isn't very potent or substantial.

I have struggled so much, I cannot describe it to you. Even IF you knew me personally, you'd be exceedingly hard-pressed to understand how much grace I've seen in my own life. YOU cannot TELL me what I should do to deal with this, all you have validity for (IMV) is to encourage me gently in the points you wish to make for God.

Maybe I feel like you are BARKING AT ME, because of the ALL CAPS thing which you think doesn't matter (many, including me have told you differently). But you are so mistaken, if you really think that I cannot take the "Bible", knot what little faith I have into a weapon, and fire it BACK AT YOU.

But I think that is ultimately a watste of time; for the kinds of foundational and fundamental views any of us could argue (here or elsewhere), only affect us when God Himself has confirmed it somehow in our individual heart, minds or other ways that I don't pretend to believe I actually understand.

Simply put, we disagree, Suzanne. I think you are wrong, but I understand that you have a particular "biblical" perspective that I either cannot or will not abide. I think you may be right about some things, but know you aren't right "overall". And for that very reason, I'm not going to pretend to know what is "right" for your life per se. Still, it doesn't mean that I won't challenge you in some ways that I think/believe you should be.

-Mel-

[melikio]

Mel wrote: If not, then why are you demanding something sexually of homosexuals, that in the purest and most practical sense heterosexuals (Christian and otherwise) will not apply or enforce consistently amongst themselves?

Suzanne responded: How do you mean and what do you mean BY PUREST and MOST PRACTICAL SENSE????

Traditionally, it is clear that homosexual people are under far more pressure to adhere to forms of morality that most heterosexual people rarely give much thought to.

There are myriad sexual concepts and practices (including many related to divorce) which heterosexuals (including the majority of "Christians) put little or no energy into questioning whatsoever.

So, if what many heterosexual-Christians claim was "PURE" truth (and applied as such), then the duality I'm pointing out, would NOT be obvious. There is clearly a different MORAL standard applied (even from the Bible), when a comparison of what people can/will do about the perceived sins of homosexuals vs. heterosexuals. Homosexual people (Christians and otherwise) are aware of this, but few will address it in any significant way. For it is easy and POPULAR to ROLL a tremendous amount of the moral question onto "homosexuals"; and it is "wrong" to do, but it is PRACTICAL for many heterosexuals to ROLL the bulk of the attention onto homosexuals or homosexuality, while socially and in comparison they seem to be doing nothing or little that is questionable.

And despite what many who are against homosexuals or homosexuality may think/believe, that obvious "duality" does tend to "QUALIFY" (mitigate the claimed validity of) what is so often said against it.

IF we are going to DEMAND that a homosexual person be something that most heterosexual people only IMAGINE or give half-hearted lip service to (at most), then the homosexual person has a clear aspect to contend with. And IF so-called biblical sexual morality were as strongly ADVOCATED on the heterosexual side of humanity, there might actually be a more "reasonable" modicum of compassion for homosexuals, that is very hard to come by today.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

melikio wrote:
I think that many Christians need to reconsider what it is that THEY must do, as it relates to homosexuality and homosexuals.

That is what I reject the strongest to.

Homosexuals are the ones demanding Christians change. Homosexuals have no support from the Bible for demanding Christians change. That is what I call homosexualization. The Gay Agenda and its political agenda is shown for what it is. Intolerant.

Gays say that homosexuality has been with us for as long as recorded history. It has been rejected by society after society after society.

Homosexual culture and lifestyle is too attached to perversion, excess, cruelty and deviance. Normal, decent people find the hedonist repugnant.

I want it made clear that "tolerance" does not mean acceptance. No amount of 2006 political correctness; forcing a Christian to submit to homosexualization is going to change human nature. Homosexuality IS an aberration. Nothing can change that. A wall of legal protection, not unlike Israel versus Hezbollah; needs to be put up to protect Christians from this incredible attack being waged day in and day out against them by secularists and gays and lesbians.

Micatal wrote:
Again, I know I am suggesting a big change in thinking for those with a traditional viewpoint on homosexuality.

No you are not. This same-gender sex acts thing has come up again and again and again. In fact it is written in the Bible itself for the same reasons. Homosexuality is not compatible to a healthy congregagtion. There is no way to force homosexualization onto the 2006 (or beyond) Church.

However, I am absolutely not suggesting 'nothing is wrong' anymore.

Unfortunately you are. If two men can call themselves a husband and a wife, it's over. Morality is dead. The history of homosexuals is not rosy.

Yes, when 'moral boundaries' change it always creates concern and we should not undertake these changes lightly (I think I mistyped and wrote 'rightly' a few posts back).

This is never going to happen with gay sex male or female. They will never win a forced acceptance and they will never win any other form of acceptance in healthy Churches. That is why we see the Gay Agenda the way it is. A secular political-power organization.

But such changes in BIblical interpretation have been made successfully in the past without the total dissolution of all moral boundaries.

And since Biblical scribe put ink on recording surface, same-gender sex acts have been not apporved. You cannot equate anal sex to slavery in any other way than a slave being raped by a same-gender perpetrator. Science also does not lend support for using the body orifices for things they were not designed for. This isn't just a Biblical issue for Christians.

I am suggesting what I think is a reasonable change that does not effect the central tenets of Christianity anymore than the change in outlook from the earth-centered to sun-centered world-view, the acceptance of Black's and women as 'equal human beings', the allowance that OT laws are not required of Christians, etc.

The sun still "rises" in the west. I just heard that on the news yesterday. Marriage cannot be altered to make gays and lesbians feel thay have won some battle over decent and beautiful Christians.

1John wrote:
God and His prohets always warn of the problems associated with joining in with the detestable practices of the non-believers.

micatala wrote:
What the Israelites found detestable, Jesus did not. What is detestable changes over time. What does not change for Christians is that God expects us to love Him, and to love each other (believers and non-believers alike, even our enemies).

Jesus detailed marriage in no uncertain way. What anyone is trying to do with same-sex marriage, they will have to do away from Christians and their Churches.

1John wrote:
Which of course makes homosexuals our enemies (if we are to love our enemies). Why would you want to force these people into our Churches? I cannot understand your motives?

Micatal wrote:
I know some homosexuals are anti-Christian. I am not sure why those that are believers need to be considered enemies.

Homosexuals preaching this "different Gospel" are no different than Mormons or Scientologists. Christians see both preaching a different and opposing Gospel. Homosexuals are definately altering Biblical textst from OT to Revelation.

At any rate, I am not trying to 'force' them in, I am simply hoping that Christians in general come to accept homosexuality as not being sinful.

Same-gender sex acts are sinful. Where is there any other declaration for them in either the Old Testament OR the New Testament? People that refuse to repent must not even be allowed in a Church, let alone let in and then asked to leave. Read what John wrote about in his three little epistles.

My motives are born out of a conviction that this is an unnecessarily divisive and painful issue for the church, and that homosexuals are often treated unfairly, hatefully, and are marginalized for no real good reason.

And I have detailed in grueling, graphic and truthful examples, why there are extremely good reasons for opposing, disapproving and dissenting of homosexualization (The Gay Agenda) forced on Christians. I pray that you preach to these people that they repent like you and I do.

In the current situation, I believe the church is losing by excluding this entire group of people, and many who could be saved and come into the church are now not because they perceive, rightly or wrongly, that Christians hate them.

"Hate," is an inaccurate word. "Distrust" and "realize" are better words. Homosexuals have proven beyond doubt that there mesage is to recruit youth into a lifestyle, culture and community of homosexuality. No different than Mormons cruising for their converts amongst Christians. Any God-fearing Christian must oppose homosexualization of children into "Queer" culture. It goes no further than that. No hate, homophobia or bigotry. Just cold hard facts gathered from Gay and Lesbian outreach communications, organizations and actions.

They think, and I think with some justification, that many Christians are asking homosexuals to carry a burden that they themselves are not willing to carry.

ANYONE, Christian-labeled or not, that wants to promote and encourage anyone to commit sin has got to be defined for what they are. Non members.

They perceive, rightly or wrongly, that many CHristians are not acting in love, but perhaps more out of fear, or pride in their own righteousness. Mel has often spoken eloquently of this dynamic.

Mel, presents "poor pitiful me." That does not cut it in a congregation seeking a healthy body of believers, and is no where taught as an excuse for wrong actions to go unchallenged. Gays and Lesbians can think whatever they want to about Christians in their secular political lobbies, but Christians are not the bad guys demanding to alter family and marriage and morality.

Is some of this criticism of Christians unfair? Perhaps.

Who cares. The type of people that beat Jesus and executed Him were lascivious licentious totalitarian hedonists. Jesus told us in no uncertain terms that these kinds of people would speak all manner of evil about us. AND, would think it is good to do so and to also go as far as persecuting us AS the bad guys.

Polycarp comes to my mind everytime I type on the issue of Gay political power. So what that these kinds of people hate us? No way are they coming into our congregtions and changing us. Let their vengeance be meted out to people that do not want to share their ideas about God. No different than the Romans and Christians in the formation of the body of believers. Trust me when I say that I do not believe that liberal/progressive/gays/lesbians, will move to wipe us out. They need us far more than we need them. We work and pay taxes in far larger numbers than the "Queer Community." Our culture is far more beneficial for social order and overall health. I have done away with my persecution views.

As with many issues, those on opposing sides often have a hard time understanding or being sympathetic to their opponents, and I think it is true that some in the homosexual community . . .

Stop right there. The community and culture presented "by" homosexuals has nothing in common with the Christian community. It all starts and ends there.

. . . that some in the homosexual community are not sympathetic to the viewpoint or feelings of Christians . . .

All we are supposed to do "as Christians" is to shake off our shoes and go on to those that will listen and repent. Notice, that that is considered a crime "in" Queer Culture and Community.

. . . who believe they are doing nothing more than trying to follow their faith and convictions in good conscience.

Good conscience is the key. I want homosexuals on the opposing side, as they will not agree with immutable truths on family and marriage, only because they see Christians as the bad guys. I MUST show love to my brothers and sisters in Christ and to show my love FOR THEM. The opposition I must love as enemies.

Those two things "family and marriage" and the resulting situation for children, will keep such a line of demarcation between the Queer Community and its Culture, and Christians and how they believe and live their lives. I see only an odd and unhelathy pseudo-mimicking of Christian life and lifestyle in this new political morality being trumpeted by the Gay Agenda. Sorry, Rosie O'Donnel's kids not understanding what the issue "is," is just as alarming for why Rosie is using kids to further the Gay Agenda.

Love the sinner hate the sin is not allowed in the Queer Culture. Even you have presented that very fact. "They" have nothing to repent of. Micatala, you agree with them on that. I, and millions of other Christians, can not fellowship with those kinds of people! Mormons think they have no need of repenting either. Their Jesus (?) . . . oh nevermind.

If I could accomplish nothing more than persuade a few people to gain a better understanding and sympathy for the position and situation of homosexuals, then I will consider that a success.

You have succeeded with me. I have weighed the evidence you presented and grew further away from desiring to see Queer Culture forced onto Christians. I don't know how to gain knowledge of their actions because I get so many pop ups when trying. And I am concerned with what I am putting on my computer. You get only porno sites when you try to get internet info on gay sex. I try to examine "it" (the gay and lesbian position) more closely and I get nauseated from the effort.

I also have great sympathy for those living in homosexuality but, on that, in no different way than Mormons and Muslims. Wrong theology. Wrong God.

I will be leaving this place for a little while.

I just wanted to be clear on the issue. Once again. There is a line drawn that should not be blurred. (My main point.)

I'll visit this topic a few more times (until 8/2) for any rebuttals necessary.

All I can say is good luck and I hope you and yours live a long and healthy life.

[Suzanne]

Cannot tell anyone any truth that they really do not want to understand or know the truth of a matter. SO MY telling to anything that GOD HAS already said and done about anything is absolutely useless for me to say anything IT IS A WASTE of time to even type what IS already been said and done. because THAT is what I have already done and IT JUST GOES over your head because YOU do not take the word of God seriously simply because you like so many do not see GOD IN ANYTHING> HE IS invisable to you.and as LONG AS he is invisable to you then you cannot believe in what HE has already said and done. GRACE YES WE ARE saved by GRACE. WE ARE THAT> AND IT IS FINISHED!!!!!

He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.

Someday He will come for you just as he will for me and many others for he comes to us all sooner or later. and only THE FATHER KNOWS when that will be.

as for me I am ready anytime. and I have no regrets FOR I have done the best I knew how to do . That after all is all any of us can do.

I have not argued with GOD, and I have not questioned God, I just have believed God IS!!! GOD. IT is CALLED FAITH IN what HE HAS ALREADY SAID AND DONE FOR ME . and EXPECTING HIM TO continue doing all HE HAS said HE WILL DO RIGHT UP TO THE END....

SO with all that we can agree to disagree with one another. BECAUSE GOD KNOWS ALL THERE is TO KNOW ABOUT YOU just as HE KNOWS all there is to know abot ME.

There does come a time in ones life here. that one looks back on the life we have had and the days and years we have left and come to understand and know that none of it was in vain not at all.. UNLESS of course we have Litterally wasted our lives. in some way . BUT I PERSONALLY DO NOT THINK ANY LIFE IS A WASTED LIFE.. What really gets to me??? is the people that think LIFE IS SO CHEAP THAT they have a RIGHT TO TAKE that LIFE from another EITHER BY ABUSE< OR LITERALLY TAKING THAT LIFE from them. YET WE ALL KNOW THAT CRIME HAPPENS, and all CRIME MUST BE DEALT WITH .

OF COURSE THAT IS The REASON FOR LOVE THY GOD, and LOVE THY NEIGHBOR. TO BAD WE ARE so IGNORANT TO JUST NOT DO IT..

I have found that TO LOVE AS GOD HAS LOVED CAUSES MORE PAIN THEN ANY OF US should ever have to suffer. BUT SO what..... I HAVE NOT been NAILED TO ANY CROSS . BUT HE WAS.. and all because of OUR SIN............. FOR THAT HE IS WORTHY TO be CALLED MY LORD AND SAVIOR... even if you cannot have that TRUTH WITHIN YOU> and REALLY BELIEVE IN HIS TRUTH and just accept it.

LIFE is so much easier to just ACCEPT and RECIEVE HIM then to DOUBT and QUESTION IF IF IF WHY WHY WHY

JUST because one does not like the TRUTH IT DOES NOT MAKE IT ANY LESS TRUTH >> THAT is THE BOTTOM LINE>

No, what you said is "perceived" as the bottom line, in your own mind; I can relate to that and accept that you have your own "opinions".

What is THE "truth"? (Do you have it? Either live by it, or PROVE it.)

as for LOVE OF GOD OR OUR LOVE FOR GOD'S PEOPLE???????

Some Christians enjoy talking about how they "love" those they would clearly mistreat. (Been there, seen that and suffered because of it. If you want to call that "Christian", go ahead.)

WELL I BELIEVE GOD HAS MADE PEOPLE BECAUSE MAN AND WOMAN ARE PEOPLE>

I believe that too. (I can't prove it, but the structure of my "faith" allows me to believe it, as much as it is possible for me to believe it.) Still, I don't have "perfect" faith about anything, and I don't believe the same things that every other "Christian" DOES believe.

AND GOD HAS CREATED US AS DIFFERENT FOR A REASON AND FOR HIS PURPOSE> IF YOU do not agree take it up with GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I DID argue about it with "God"; where were YOU, when I was on my knees for over 37 years asking for answers about the very things we have discussed and debated (on this forum)?

What do you "know" He has told me or anyone else? Is it possible that God can tell an individual something, that others either do not know or understand?

ARGUE with HIM ALL YOU WANT TO .

I do NOT wish to argue anything about one's "faith"; you can't prove a damned thing, nor can I. I will just remind YOU and any other human being, that it is HIGHLY questionable, just how much authority and autonomy you might have over another person's life. It is also questionable just how far you can go to AFFECT another, before you yourself (or anyone else) steps outside of the actual will of the Creator.

BUT I GUARRENTEE YOU HE will not change HIS MIND ON WHAT SIN IS!!!

Most of my years have been spent trying to understand where I fit into the GRAND SCHEME of things; not about seeking control over what happens to be.

JUST SO ALL CAN CONTINUE IN THEIR SIN AND NOT HAVE ANY CONDEMNATION when THEY ALREADY KNOW that what they are doing is wrong in the first place.

And I won't be there judging YOU, if/when the Lord runs down the list of sins you yourself are responsible for. Really, you don't know the grace God has afforded you; even to this point in your life. I know I don't take it for granted (at least I try not to).

THOSE THAT HAVE BELIEVED IN HIM ARE NOT CONDEMNED,, BUT ALL THAT HAVE NOT BELIEVED ARE CONDEMNED ALREADY......

Ok. I can't do a darned thing about THAT.

GOD IS NOT GOING TO GO BACK TO YESTERDAY and CHANGE THE WORD SO ALL IN YESTERDAY CAN BE BLAMELESS.

If He's counting DEAD sparrows; then He understands what I've been through, far better than any Christians claiming "truth" on the internet. I'm not "blameless", and never imagined I was; saved-by-grace, is my ONLY hope. Beyond that, I can't fix "anything".

HE WILL NOT GO INTO TOMORROW AND CHANGE THE WORD SO AS TO HAVE THISE SINS DISAPEAR TOMORROW SO ALL THAT DO THEM DO NOT GET ACCOUNTEED FOR THOSE SINS.

Perhaps He is STILL waiting for people to really understand THE WORD; so that things like the DEHUMANIZING of people who just happen to be HOMOSEXUAL (etc.) aren't treated like HE was (overall), but more like the woman who was accused of being a "harlot". You see, it's VERY easy to be poised to knock the holy-CRAP out of someone for missing or breaking a rule, and a LOT HARDER to love those who hate/challenge you.

YET TODAY!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps not one of the things about God that we truly understand changes; but we can have a LOT MORE arguments about what it is that we really "understand" about Him (or His actual will).

YOU AND MANY MANY MANY MORE HAVE A CHANCE TO CHOOSE WHEHER TO HAVE SEX WITH THAT GUY TONIGHT THAT YOU ARE WITH IF IT IS NOT A HUSBAND OF YOURS>

What are YOU planning on YOUR specific calendar of human activities? I hope God approves of your every thought and planned action. Even so, you have the grace to live freely; at least I won't be lurking around the corner to enforce HIS will upon YOU.

and THOSE THAT ARE CONTEMPLATING HAVING SEX WITH THE SAME SEX???

What if they just FALL or happen to be "fallen"; where does that say yo have anything to change that, except to help them (if you can) or to earnestly pray for them? You certainly don't have the power or authority to change or control who they are as people; that is the sole providence of God Himself.

THEY CAN CHOOSE TO NOT>

Let them choose. Set your example, and see what God can/will do with the faith you possess. You cannot and should not try to control another human being.

ALSO.. CHOICE TODAY DO IT GODS WAY OR FORGET IT ..........SAME with ANY OTHER SIN ONE MIGHT be GOING TO CONTEMPLATE DOING JUST because they CONSIDER IT OK WHEN IT IS ALREADY KNOWN TO BE NOT RIGHT AND GOOD TO DO!!!!

After many years of struggling with my sexual-orientation, and learning more about practical application of SELF-CONTROL than many Bible-quoting, biblical literalists I've encountered in life... your words ring kind of "hollow" (to me). I know what you are trying to say, but the practical meaning of what you say, isn't very potent or substantial.

I have struggled so much, I cannot describe it to you. Even IF you knew me personally, you'd be exceedingly hard-pressed to understand how much grace I've seen in my own life. YOU cannot TELL me what I should do to deal with this, all you have validity for (IMV) is to encourage me gently in the points you wish to make for God.

Maybe I feel like you are BARKING AT ME, because of the ALL CAPS thing which you think doesn't matter (many, including me have told you differently). But you are so mistaken, if you really think that I cannot take the "Bible", knot what little faith I have into a weapon, and fire it BACK AT YOU.

But I think that is ultimately a watste of time; for the kinds of foundational and fundamental views any of us could argue (here or elsewhere), only affect us when God Himself has confirmed it somehow in our individual heart, minds or other ways that I don't pretend to believe I actually understand.

Simply put, we disagree, Suzanne. I think you are wrong, but I understand that you have a particular "biblical" perspective that I either cannot or will not abide. I think you may be right about some things, but know you aren't right "overall". And for that very reason, I'm not going to pretend to know what is "right" for your life per se. Still, it doesn't mean that I won't challenge you in some ways that I think/believe you should be.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

Well Mel, let's bury so myths and fairy tales right here and right now.

Traditionally, it is clear that homosexual people are under far more pressure to adhere to forms of morality that most heterosexual people rarely give much thought to.

Male homosexuals have such stress from multiple sex partners. AIDS and multiple STD's are a grueling reality that cannot even be hidden. The overwhelming message you get "from" the Gay Community is live for the moment with as many sex partners as you can fit into your life. There can be no way of skirting that issue. This "new" morality being presented to the 99% of society that is not seeking homosexual sex, is that the Queer Community and Culture is just like any other. Mel, a Cuban is a Cuban. Homosexuality is a sex act. A Cuban may have have desires to have same-gender sex, but they are "just" a Cuban.

There are myriad sexual concepts and practices (including many related to divorce) which heterosexuals (including the majority of "Christians) put little or no energy into questioning whatsoever.

It is just unintellectual to continue to parade out the divorce card. Two wrongs are two wrongs. Why compare and present that as a choice?

The Queer Culture should stay as a minority culture within a culture for obvious reasons. IT IS a minority community. OK, OK, "you guys" got sex acts elevated to a civil rights protected classification. Ok. Now be quiet and go away. I don't care what my bosses do in the privacy of their own home. BUT, if their blood is affected (infected) with an STD, we had better hear about. IF, they are engaging in behavior that can harm people that do not want to be involved in "their" consequences, than we should hear about about a person's private sexual tastes. Then and only then.

IF a person's private sex life will affect the congregation of a Church then, we should hear about what people do in their private life. It would be impossible to preach purity and a moral life for others if members of the outreach Church are immoral.

So, if what many heterosexual-Christians claim was "PURE" truth (and applied as such), then the duality I'm pointing out, would NOT be obvious. There is clearly a different MORAL standard applied (even from the Bible), when a comparison of what people can/will do about the perceived sins of homosexuals vs. heterosexuals.

That is not the fault of people born with a normal sexual orientation. Sociopaths are expected to care about others "IF" they join a Christian Church. Sociopaths are born the way they are. Yet, they are expected not to indulge their inability to care about others.

Homosexual people (Christians and otherwise) are aware of this, but few will address it in any significant way.

HOW !!!!??? (Excuse the Suzanne.) Gays and lesbians will not allows any dissent or disapproval of homosexualization. Everyone must agree to their terms or face legal (secular) sanctions and acttions.

For it is easy and POPULAR to ROLL a tremendous amount of the moral question onto "homosexuals";

Like what? "We" don't want to hear about your deviant and altered version of family and marriage? We can't. "You" gays (and lesbians) will not allow us any dissenting position. Any disapproval is now a hate crime. We can't just want to live our lives away from homosexuality. We MUST be inculcated and indoctrianted into Gay/Lesbian perspective! Why Mel? Why? We all know what sex is and how it all works.

You gays and lesbians go your way and we'll go ours. No discrimination . . . works BOTH ways.

and it is "wrong" to do, but it is PRACTICAL for many heterosexuals to ROLL the bulk of the attention onto homosexuals or homosexuality,

Bull. Walking through Target and what is front and center I'M GAY. Some, who gives a sh!&, is declaring to who that he is Gay? Tell me Mel, why do we need to know about some boy band member and his sexual tastes? Why? I refuse to buy the mag.

Why did Oprrah Winfrey need to declare to the world that her and her best frined "were not" lebians????

while socially and in comparison they seem to be doing nothing or little that is questionable.

Teaching children to choose a homosexual life. lifestyle, culture and community is very questionable to a "not a homosexual" parent. Not many parents want their children "indoctrinated" into gang life. Mel. Are we to label those kinds of people "Thugaphobes?"

And despite what many who are against homosexuals or homosexuality may think/believe, that obvious "duality" does tend to "QUALIFY" (mitigate the claimed validity of) what is so often said against it.

Live with it. You have a congenital condition that makes people uncomfortable. "You guys" are the ones demanding that homosexuality is a pre-birth condition. That means that it is sensible to feel you are born with a birth defect. Every parent fears that for their child. It is NOT bigotry to see those with a birth defect to choose same-gender sex acts, as something you don't want elevated to a new civl rights classification. We don't let cerebral palsy sufferers to drive cars. We don't let epileptics drive cars unless they have their disorder under control by drugs.

You gays and lesbians claim that your sexual desires are a birth condition that is no ones fault. So, then it is not our fault to see you as sufferer of a disorder. We don't let epileptics decide the limits of their congenital conditions.

IF we are going to DEMAND that a homosexual person be something that most heterosexual people only IMAGINE or give half-hearted lip service to (at most), then the homosexual person has a clear aspect to contend with.

What? That homosexuals have a man and woman arrangement for raising children? What else does the Bible codone? What else does nature show for human beings? Either way Mel, it is not the non-homosexual that is intolerant on marriage and family. The Court system decides where and to whom a child of divorce gets to live with. Is that dividedaphobia?

And IF so-called biblical sexual morality were as strongly ADVOCATED on the heterosexual side of humanity, there might actually be a more "reasonable" modicum of compassion for homosexuals, that is very hard to come by today.

Homosexuals demand in no uncertain terms to be the only voice on sexual morality.

Pure and simple.

We non-homosexuals won't go down without a strong defense of normality and morality. And when the homosexuals win the power of secular laws to force their will on others, we'll just dissent in other ways. You cannot force the Gay Agenda into the homes of strong, moral, decent familes. The Angels proved that to the inhospitable mob demanding to force their social values and views on them in the home of Lot. Social views that did not disapprove of same-gender sex acts being forced on all.

Look what is happening to the Anglican Community of Churches worldwide.

It is far past time Mel, for the Queer Community and its Culture, to realize that it and they, cannot force their will on others. Let's get things back in a proper perspective for once. Huh?

[Cathar1950]

You cannot speak for all churches and all Christians. Some will always worship with Homosexuals and vise versa. You may have a few closed churches that will cal themselves true Christians but the will change become part of the diversity or die. Unless they pull some new evil move. You have selectively picked questionable passages from an ancient text and call them the final words of God. I find that vain.
1John2_26:

You cannot equate anal sex to slavery in any other way than a slave being raped by a same-gender perpetrator. Science also does not lend support for using the body orifices for things they were not designed for.

You know full well we are not talking about anal sex; we are talking about the love, affection, and commitment between to adults. Science does not support your bigotry. It has nothing to do with orifices and you should be reported.

You will not be forced to accept but you may have to change churches based on “no homosexuals”. It will be a new church even cultic and quaint.
1John2_26:

Homosexual culture and lifestyle is too attached to perversion, excess, cruelty and deviance. Normal, decent people find the hedonist repugnant.

That is all true of heterosexuality. In your case you are projecting all the woes on a few homosexuals for your scapegoat. It is pure slander and another reason you should be reported.

1John2_26:

Homosexuals are the ones demanding Christians change. Homosexuals have no support from the Bible for demanding Christians change. That is what I call homosexualization. The Gay Agenda and its political agenda is shown for what it is. Intolerant.

Both homosexuals and heterosexuals don’t ask you to change they just would like to see you act Christian. The gay agenda is just a cover for your personal anti-gay agenda.

1John2_26:

Homosexuality IS an aberration. Nothing can change that. A wall of legal protection, not unlike Israel versus Hezbollah; needs to be put up to protect Christians from this incredible attack being waged day in and day out against them by secularists and gays and lesbians.

So you want to build walls and bomb people that you believe are aberration? You again should be reported.

1John2_26:

Who cares. The type of people that beat Jesus and executed Him were lascivious licentious totalitarian hedonists. Jesus told us in no uncertain terms that these kinds of people would speak all manner of evil about us. AND, would think it is good to do so and to also go as far as persecuting us AS the bad guys.

You equate the above with homosexuals. It seems now instead of Jews you blame Homosexuals for killing Jesus. I see here in your words you equating both scapegoats Jews and Homosexuals; Two more reasons to report you.

1John2_26:

Trust me when I say that I do not believe that liberal/progressive/gays/lesbians, will move to wipe us out. They need us far more than we need them. We work and pay taxes in far larger numbers than the "Queer Community." Our culture is far more beneficial for social order and overall health. I have done away with my persecution views.

Yes you have moved on to the persecutor.

1John2_26:

The community and culture presented "by" homosexuals has nothing in common with the Christian community. It all starts and ends there.

But they are still Christians and accepted as Christians; only your mind stops.

Goodbye and I hope it doesn’t work out the way you like.

[melikio]

I have not argued with GOD, and I have not questioned God, I just have believed God IS!!! GOD.

I have done the same (at times); I cannot claim that I've never been angry with God, or skeptical about His very existence.

If one thinks, I find it hard to see how they couldn't have serious doubts and/or disagreements with God (and the many who CLAIM to represent Him and His will).

But to each his/her own; I can't define "faith" for anyone's "insides", but my very own.

Regards,

-Mel-

[melikio]

melikio wrote:
I think that many Christians need to reconsider what it is that THEY must do, as it relates to homosexuality and homosexuals.

1John wrote: That is what I reject the strongest to.

That's your right; but I question (to a profound degree) your "rejection" period.

Homosexuals are the ones demanding Christians change.

No; that isn't true. (Aren't you supposed to at least TRY to tell the "truth"?) It seems that you'll say anything you want, just to have the "effect" that you believe needs to be "projected". (Not very effective or wise; truth is better than what you are putting out.)

Homosexuals have no support from the Bible for demanding Christians change.

And YOU have no such support either. Not that you haven't made "some" moral points, but that YOU (1John) truly DO NOT have the authority to DEMAND anything (except that which you yourself are dedicated to). YOU have the option of DUSTING OFF YOUR FEET, and moving along as it pertains to others; and there IS a point where YOU probably just need to do that (just as the Bible says).

That is what I call homosexualization.

It's more like the most "nebulous-strawman" I've ever encountered in an argument or discussion. What?! Do you believe or think that God actually approves of your every thought on this?

The Gay Agenda and its political agenda is shown for what it is. Intolerant.

There ARE some "intolerant" people; but they aren't relegated to a single side of the arguments which exist. And if you expect homosexuals to allow themselves to be dehumanized, and take it smiling, you are being unrealistic and/or delusional.

Gays say that homosexuality has been with us for as long as recorded history. It has been rejected by society after society after society.

No, this is not true. What planet are you taking your historical picture from? And what about homosexuality is actually harmful? Even I think that certain practices are troubling; it's just that I believe people should OPPOSE the dehumanization of human beings, merely because they happen to be "homosexual".

Homosexual culture and lifestyle is too attached to perversion, excess, cruelty and deviance.

Well 1John, we'd better also work on banning a significant portion of those living the "heterosexual" culture and lifestyle; the same list of STEREOTYPES can be used to label them as well. (Get real.) It's a good thing that many can see that not ALL "Christians" agree with the kinds of things you are known to say. (Thank God!))

Normal, decent people find the hedonist repugnant.

Uh, no they don't. In fact, some who wear the labels you listed (proudly, I might add), are some of THE MOST hedonistic people I have ever known in my entire life. Many DO wear a great "Christian" face (veneer), but they no more have control of or modesty about their sexuality, than the typical homosexual person.

Too much of what you claim is "myth", but I give you credit for effort; after all, there is something to the idea that something repeated enough times, either loses it's meaning, or is outright believe as being true. I'm sure you are hoping for the latter effect.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

Cathar1950,

You finally got around to threatening me. How I knew this was coming. Where's your club members? You guys usally work in mobs. How inhospitable.

"Reporting me?" For what? Not submitting to the homosexualization of society? My Church? My family? How typical of your side. How very typical.

Go here for the Orthodox Jewish issue of homosexuality hitting them head on: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 66,00.html An "ex" Orthodox Jewish woman vents her wrath on the Jewish community for her husbands choices. It is a reality check for those that live in reality.

Your threats make me laugh. What can forcing threats at me do to me? You liberals need my taxes. Without hardworking family men, your society breaks down to drug dealers, pimps and "ho's" and their clientele. Do the math for spiraling and diminishing returns Cathar1950. I can debate you in reality anytime you want. Until August 2nd that is. Then, I move on for a while. (No NOT MoveOn. They're the bad guys.)

Every "Queer Culture" supporter demands that the Bible-believer be painted as the bad guy. Click on the discussion at the above Jewish website. http://www.ynetnews.com. Or, go to Aish.com as well and look around that Jewish website.

This issue infects many peoples.

You cannot speak for all churches and all Christians.

Try reading my posts instead of knee-jerking them with your emotional progressive mindset. I do not speak for liberals or progressives. They stand and fall on their own words and actions. I read what they write pal. I do not react to being led. I react to individuals.

Some will always worship with Homosexuals and vise versa.

Worship is a spiriitual issue.

Homosexuality is a sex act. Or two or three. I wish you could understand that.

You may have a few closed churches that will cal themselves true Christians but the will change become part of the diversity or die.

Death is not all that big a threat to we Christians Cathar1950. Like Polycarp says: Is that all you got?

Unless they pull some new evil move.

Like homosexualizing "my" Church. You'd better invest in new prison constructions. You seem hell-bent to imprison Christians that will not alter the Bible for your politics. Orthodox jews have similar enemies.

You have selectively picked questionable passages from an ancient text and call them the final words of God. I find that vain.

I call it honesty. I do not alter the text, edit it, or change it so I can feel warm and fuzzy, or, to negate my sins. That would not just be vain, it would be evil.

1John2_26:
Quote:
You cannot equate anal sex to slavery in any other way than a slave being raped by a same-gender perpetrator. Science also does not lend support for using the body orifices for things they were not designed for.

You know full well we are not talking about anal sex; we are talking about the love, affection, and commitment between to adults.

You claim to want to be taken seriously "and" you do not know what sex between male homosexuals "is?" I find that rather amuzing and reassuring that I am not the ignorant debater.

Science does not support your bigotry.

rather it proves "I" am keeping with anatomy without editing and emotionalism. I am not the one lying about what body parts are for.

It has nothing to do with orifices and you should be reported.

I love this. Where is your gay police? Please report me to the AMA. I will not submit to LGBT thugs. Call the AMA on me. They too will be interested in your views on body orifices.

I'd like to see what the AMA would do with a Doctor that told a couple (uh, an opposite sex couple) desiring to get pregnant, for that Doctor to tell that couple to have gay sex. I'm thinking he'll have to go back to school and learn what's up in the anatomy and physiology department.

Am I really supposed to be scared of you and your gay threats?

You will not be forced to accept but you may have to change churches based on “no homosexuals”. It will be a new church even cultic and quaint.

Your lack of knowledge is apparent here as well. I have grown so bored with interacting with you. "You" should be reported for threatening me, but, I have reported you so many times i see the futility in expecting your club members to hold you accountable. I'll take persecution from you gladly.

1John2_26:
Quote:
Homosexual culture and lifestyle is too attached to perversion, excess, cruelty and deviance. Normal, decent people find the hedonist repugnant.

That is all true of heterosexuality. In your case you are projecting all the woes on a few homosexuals for your scapegoat. It is pure slander and another reason you should be reported.

Really? How "many" names are on the list of gay men and their innocent non-gay victims that have died from AIDS, garnered from an incredible promiscuity that seriously knows know bounds. That gays and lesbians want to mimick Christians is somewhat commendable, but only to a point. Children need a mother and a father is not even a debate anymore. As if it ever was considering anatomy and physiology and biology. All sciences pal. At least maybe some innocnet wife or young person will be spared "if" we can get the uncontroallable to grow a conscience of some kind. If they want to imitate Christian life that can't be a completely bad thing if we just keep a light shined on the LGBT recruiting techniques.

1John2_26:
Quote:
Homosexuals are the ones demanding Christians change. Homosexuals have no support from the Bible for demanding Christians change. That is what I call homosexualization. The Gay Agenda and its political agenda is shown for what it is. Intolerant.

Both homosexuals and heterosexuals don’t ask you to change they just would like to see you act Christian. The gay agenda is just a cover for your personal anti-gay agenda.

If you feel comfortable labeling my defense of the incessant attacks by gays and lesbians and liberals and progressives against and directed at Christians, the way you wnat to, feel free. We'll never interact where it counts. My friends, family and brothers and sisters in Christ will stay protected from you and your aims and goals to get at them Cathar1950.

1John2_26:
Quote:
Who cares. The type of people that beat Jesus and executed Him were lascivious licentious totalitarian hedonists. Jesus told us in no uncertain terms that these kinds of people would speak all manner of evil about us. AND, would think it is good to do so and to also go as far as persecuting us AS the bad guys.

You equate the above with homosexuals.

"When in Rome do as the Romans do." Christians have been advised and commanded not to do that. Homosexuality was very prevelant to Ron slave owners. The New Testament literally has booklets about those things. You should research things before you open your mouth or browser Cathar1950. I am giving you sound advice even if you ahte me as intensely as you do. I use your offerings as reaserch material. Trust me.

It seems now instead of Jews you blame Homosexuals for killing Jesus.

Your ignorance knows no bounds. Mel Gibson may have those deep seated feelings, but I do not. Sanhedrin members may have been Jewish people but so where ALL of the apostles and of course The Lord was a Hebrew (Jew) as well. Go spout your fluff at some other Christian Catar1950. When a person is forgiven, their sins do not exist anymore. Including Caiaphas.

I see here in your words you equating both scapegoats Jews and Homosexuals; Two more reasons to report you.

With your level of iognorance about history, anatomy and the Bible Cathar1950, I somehow do not fear my day in court to defend against your charges. Pal, you do not sacre me in any way. I have too much experience with you liberal/progressives.

1John2_26:
Quote:
Trust me when I say that I do not believe that liberal/progressive/gays/lesbians, will move to wipe us out. They need us far more than we need them. We work and pay taxes in far larger numbers than the "Queer Community." Our culture is far more beneficial for social order and overall health. I have done away with my persecution views.

Yes you have moved on to the persecutor.

That is the kind of pitiful comeback that makes me know what I am dealing with and why I have nothing to fear.

1John2_26:
Quote:
The community and culture presented "by" homosexuals has nothing in common with the Christian community. It all starts and ends there.

But they are still Christians and accepted as Christians; only your mind stops.

Catar1950, "anyone" can be forgiven for homosexual sex acts. Be calm and know that God is bigger than liberal political power goals.

Goodbye and I hope it doesn’t work out the way you like.

Being rid of your of your perspectives and effects on innocent people would be a blessing. I will keep you in mind often Cathar1950, as I move on (no not MoveOn) to other communication platforms on the net. I couldn't have asked for your threatening me at a better time.

Bye.

[Suzanne]

Well Mel, let's bury so myths and fairy tales right here and right now.

YES LET's DO THAT HERE AND NOW!!!!!!!!!and BY US!!!! meaning WE AND THE LORD GOD THE FATHER, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD JESUS THE MANIFESTATION OF THE ONLY WORD THAT ANY SHOULD pay attention to. THE HOLY SPIRIT!!! REMEMBERING THAT GOD IS A SPIRIT!!!! and IF WE ARE TO WORSHIP HIM THEN WE MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH! John 4;23:
THAT HAS been PROPHECIED TO COME AFTER JOHN THE BAPTIST... BY JOHN THE BAPTIST.. AND WAS PROMISED TO BE SENT BY THAT one THAT WE ALL KNOW AS THAT PROMISED MESSIAH THAT the JEWISH PEOPLE ISRAEL!!!! THAT DENIED THEIR OWN PROMISE when HE CAME TO THEM!!! EVEN THE DISCIPLES did NOT UNDERSTAND when JESUS TOLD them THAT ELIJAH HAD ALREADY COME!!! THEN THEY FINALLY REALIZED THAT HE WAS speaking of JOHN THE BAPTIST. WE LEARN this TRUTH IN MALACHI. 4;1:-6: (noting v. 4:,5:) REMEMBER the LAW of MOSES MY SERVANT, WHICH I COMMANDED HIM IN HOREB FOR ALL ISRAEL, WITH THE STATUTES and JUDGMENTS, BEHOLD I WILL SEND YOU ELIJAH the PROPHET. REF. Matthew 17; 10:-13: REF. Exodus 20; 3: This Coming OUT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT. THAT THE LORD HAS HAD WRITTEN FOR US ALL BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY!!!! THE FIRST COMMANDMENT.. OF THE TEN GIVEN TO MOSES.. TO GIVE TO ALL THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL!!!!!! IT IS REALLY TO BAD THAT THEY CHOSE TO TAKE THESE FROM OUR SCHOOLS< OUR CHILDREN< FROM BEING TOLD AND TAUGHT THESE IN THE SCHOOLS AS THEY HAD BEEN RIGHT FROM THE FIRST SCHOOL ROOM IN THE NEW LAND CALLED AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT HEY WHAT DO I KNOW HUH????????? I AM JUST A WOMAN WHOM IS NOT SUPPOSED TO KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL RIGHT MEL, AND ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE NOT BEEN READING AND LISTENING WHAT HAS BEEN BEING SAID ALL ALONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TRUTH OF OUR LORD THY GOD HAS NOT GIVEN US THIS BOOK OF BOOKS FOR NOTHING YA KNOW THAT!!!!!!!!!! READ IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE JUST!!!! LIVE BY FAITH!!!!!!!!!! AND LEARN WHO GOD YOUR LORD IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK!!!! 1 JOHN?????? GO ahead and have your say now ok I GIVE THE FLOOR TO YOU!!!

JOHN YOU WROTE;
a Cuban is a Cuban. Homosexuality is a sex act. A Cuban may have have desires to have same-gender sex, but they are "just" a Cuban.


It could have also been said and should be said.

A CHRISTIAN is A CHRISTIAN. and THEY ALREADY KNOW that HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SINFUL SEXUAL RELATION THAT is NOT ANYTHING BUT AN ABOMINATION AGAINST OUR GOD ALMIGHTY HE HAS ALREADY MADE IT SO BY MAKING A MAN, AND A WOMAN FOR MAN, TO HAVE AS A WIFE. AS IN HUSBAND AND WIFE... BEING DISOBEDIENT TO GOD!!! WHOM IS ALSO THE ONE THAT HAS ALLOWED THEM TO HAVE LIFE just as HE HAS ALLOWED ALL MANKIND TO HAVE A LIFE . to LIVE>

SOME REPENT TURN FROM THEIR SINFUL WAYS and some do not. YET ALL HAVE SINNED.. WE ALL HAVE A CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE CAN either BELIEVE CONFESS and RECIEVE or JUST DENY GOD, and all HE HAS SAID , DONE< and GIVEN US ... IN THIS LIFE BY GIVING US THAT FAITH >>>>> and allm IT takes is A MEASURE AND A VERY SMALL MEASURE AT THAT!!!!!!!!!! IT IS THERE FROM THE BEGINNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all SEED EVEN THAT FAITH SEED MUST BE WATERED and FEED and NOURISHED DAILY NOT just ON WEEKENDS OR WEDNESDAY'S and YOU DO NOT need a BUILDING MADE WITH THE HANDS OF MAN .. JUST NEED TO HEAR THE WORD AT THE RIGHT TIME AND TIME IS IN THE HANDS OF OUR LORD GOD WHEN IT COMES TO HIS REASON AND PURPOSES. THESE EARS HEARD A WORD SO MANY YEARS AGO. THIS IS where I GOT MY FAITH ........

Traditionally, it is clear that homosexual people are under far more pressure to adhere to forms of morality that most heterosexual people rarely give much thought to.

Male homosexuals have such stress from multiple sex partners. AIDS and multiple STD's are a grueling reality that cannot even be hidden. The overwhelming message you get "from" the Gay Community is live for the moment with as many sex partners as you can fit into your life. There can be no way of skirting that issue. This "new" morality being presented to the 99% of society that is not seeking homosexual sex, is that the Queer Community and Culture is just like any other. Mel, a Cuban is a Cuban. Homosexuality is a sex act. A Cuban may have have desires to have same-gender sex, but they are "just" a Cuban.

There are myriad sexual concepts and practices (including many related to divorce) which heterosexuals (including the majority of "Christians) put little or no energy into questioning whatsoever.

It is just unintellectual to continue to parade out the divorce card. Two wrongs are two wrongs. Why compare and present that as a choice?

The Queer Culture should stay as a minority culture within a culture for obvious reasons. IT IS a minority community. OK, OK, "you guys" got sex acts elevated to a civil rights protected classification. Ok. Now be quiet and go away. I don't care what my bosses do in the privacy of their own home. BUT, if their blood is affected (infected) with an STD, we had better hear about. IF, they are engaging in behavior that can harm people that do not want to be involved in "their" consequences, than we should hear about about a person's private sexual tastes. Then and only then.

IF a person's private sex life will affect the congregation of a Church then, we should hear about what people do in their private life. It would be impossible to preach purity and a moral life for others if members of the outreach Church are immoral.

So, if what many heterosexual-Christians claim was "PURE" truth (and applied as such), then the duality I'm pointing out, would NOT be obvious. There is clearly a different MORAL standard applied (even from the Bible), when a comparison of what people can/will do about the perceived sins of homosexuals vs. heterosexuals.

That is not the fault of people born with a normal sexual orientation. Sociopaths are expected to care about others "IF" they join a Christian Church. Sociopaths are born the way they are. Yet, they are expected not to indulge their inability to care about others.

Homosexual people (Christians and otherwise) are aware of this, but few will address it in any significant way.

HOW !!!!??? (Excuse the Suzanne.) Gays and lesbians will not allows any dissent or disapproval of homosexualization. Everyone must agree to their terms or face legal (secular) sanctions and acttions.

For it is easy and POPULAR to ROLL a tremendous amount of the moral question onto "homosexuals";

Like what? "We" don't want to hear about your deviant and altered version of family and marriage? We can't. "You" gays (and lesbians) will not allow us any dissenting position. Any disapproval is now a hate crime. We can't just want to live our lives away from homosexuality. We MUST be inculcated and indoctrianted into Gay/Lesbian perspective! Why Mel? Why? We all know what sex is and how it all works.

You gays and lesbians go your way and we'll go ours. No discrimination . . . works BOTH ways.

and it is "wrong" to do, but it is PRACTICAL for many heterosexuals to ROLL the bulk of the attention onto homosexuals or homosexuality,

Bull. Walking through Target and what is front and center I'M GAY. Some, who gives a sh!&, is declaring to who that he is Gay? Tell me Mel, why do we need to know about some boy band member and his sexual tastes? Why? I refuse to buy the mag.

Why did Oprrah Winfrey need to declare to the world that her and her best frined "were not" lebians????

while socially and in comparison they seem to be doing nothing or little that is questionable.

Teaching children to choose a homosexual life. lifestyle, culture and community is very questionable to a "not a homosexual" parent. Not many parents want their children "indoctrinated" into gang life. Mel. Are we to label those kinds of people "Thugaphobes?"

And despite what many who are against homosexuals or homosexuality may think/believe, that obvious "duality" does tend to "QUALIFY" (mitigate the claimed validity of) what is so often said against it.

Live with it. You have a congenital condition that makes people uncomfortable. "You guys" are the ones demanding that homosexuality is a pre-birth condition. That means that it is sensible to feel you are born with a birth defect. Every parent fears that for their child. It is NOT bigotry to see those with a birth defect to choose same-gender sex acts, as something you don't want elevated to a new civl rights classification. We don't let cerebral palsy sufferers to drive cars. We don't let epileptics drive cars unless they have their disorder under control by drugs.

You gays and lesbians claim that your sexual desires are a birth condition that is no ones fault. So, then it is not our fault to see you as sufferer of a disorder. We don't let epileptics decide the limits of their congenital conditions.

IF we are going to DEMAND that a homosexual person be something that most heterosexual people only IMAGINE or give half-hearted lip service to (at most), then the homosexual person has a clear aspect to contend with.

What? That homosexuals have a man and woman arrangement for raising children? What else does the Bible codone? What else does nature show for human beings? Either way Mel, it is not the non-homosexual that is intolerant on marriage and family. The Court system decides where and to whom a child of divorce gets to live with. Is that dividedaphobia?

And IF so-called biblical sexual morality were as strongly ADVOCATED on the heterosexual side of humanity, there might actually be a more "reasonable" modicum of compassion for homosexuals, that is very hard to come by today.

Homosexuals demand in no uncertain terms to be the only voice on sexual morality.

Pure and simple.

We non-homosexuals won't go down without a strong defense of normality and morality. And when the homosexuals win the power of secular laws to force their will on others, we'll just dissent in other ways. You cannot force the Gay Agenda into the homes of strong, moral, decent familes. The Angels proved that to the inhospitable mob demanding to force their social values and views on them in the home of Lot. Social views that did not disapprove of same-gender sex acts being forced on all.

Look what is happening to the Anglican Community of Churches worldwide.

It is far past time Mel, for the Queer Community and its Culture, to realize that it and they, cannot force their will on others. Let's get things back in a proper perspective for once. Huh?[/quote]