If Jesus is not God

[Elijah John]

If Jesus is not God, as JWs and some other Christians suggest, how serious an idolatry is it to worship him as though he is?

Are ignorance and indoctrination valid excuses to worship Jesus?

Conversely, if Jesus is God, how sinful is it to consider him a "mere" human, prophet, rabbi etc.?

Does the Bible ever condemn anyone for not acknowledging someone other than the Father as "God"?

Before someone worships Jesus as "God" hadn't one be pretty darn sure that he is, indeed God?

In a variation of Pascal's wager, isn't it more safe and wise to worship the Father alone as "God", since there is really no Biblical downside to doing so?

If one embraces the Father alone as God, what does one have to lose?

[2timothy316]

If Jesus is not God, as JWs and some other Christians suggest, how serious an idolatry is it to worship him as though he is?

If we don't know Jehovah from His Son, Jesus says: “I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’�​—Matthew 7:23.

"Everyone, then, who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father who is in the heavens. But whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens." - Matthew 10:32, 33

Seems to me if we don't know them, then they don't know us. To disown who Jesus is worse than idolatry. That's pretty serious. Calling Jesus something he isn't, to me is just the same as disowning who he really is. That would include calling him Almighty God, just a prophet or only a man. All of those titles miss the mark. “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.� - John 17:3

[Elijah John]

To disown who Jesus is worse than idolatry. That's pretty serious. Calling Jesus something he isn't, to me is just the same as disowning who he really is. That would include calling him Almighty God, just a prophet or only a man. All of those titles miss the mark. “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.� - John 17:3

I think we both agree that Jesus is not presented as "God" in the New Testament, certainly not in the "Old" Testament. John and Paul are both ambiguous on the matter, however.

Even the apostles were not clear on who Jesus was. Even they were not clear whether he was the Messiah. How could anyone be blamed for not recognizing him as the Messiah when he did not usher in the Messianic age? (the first time around, anyway) Or how could an average first century Jew (or anyone else for that matter) be blamed for not recognizing Jesus as the eternal pre-existent Logos of God, or an incarnate angel? Remember, most people are not theologians, and it is no sin not to be a theologian!

Wasn't Jesus saying the most important thing was to listen to him? What he said about loving God and neighbor, how to pray, how to live how to walk the straight and narrow, (his halachah)? In short, how to do the will of God? To embrace his version of the "Law and the Prophets"?

[bluethread]

Given the philosophical problems related to putting Adonai in a box, I generally do not get too dogmatic about the relationship between Yeshua and Adonai Elohim. Those in our shul are more rational than charismatic, so our prayers and songs related to Adonai are basically recitations of the Scriptures. Therefore, any differences with regard to how we each view what the Scriptures say are limited to our discussions. So, the issue of "worshiping" Yeshua is limited to emulating His behavior, and honoring His comments on the Tanakh.

[Elijah John]

Given the philosophical problems related to putting Adonai in a box, I generally do not get too dogmatic about the relationship between Yeshua and Adonai Elohim. Those in our shul are more rational than charismatic, so our prayers and songs related to Adonai are basically recitations of the Scriptures. Therefore, any differences with regard to how we each view what the Scriptures say are limited to our discussions. So, the issue of "worshiping" Yeshua is limited to emulating His behavior, and honoring His comments on the Tanakh.

Seems like a good and reasonable approach. However, I would ask, do you think the First Commandment puts YHVH, "in a box"?

[2timothy316]

Even the apostles were not clear on who Jesus was. Even they were not clear whether he was the Messiah.

I am not convinced of this.

“Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.� Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did." - Matthew 16:16, 17

The identity of Jesus is revealed by Jehovah, not through flesh and blood.

"All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him." Matthew 11:27.

Peter was not the only one to have the Christ revealed to them. John knew who the Christ was, he wrote, "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John." Rev 1:1.

James said, "James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes that are scattered about:" James 1:1.

Matthew said, "The book of the history of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham:" Matthew 1:1.

I don't know when the apostles understood that Jesus was the Christ, but by the time they their wrote their letters they clearly knew who Jesus was. Note none of the letters start off 'Jesus the Almighty God' though which is lesser than what Christendom calls him but he is more than a prophet which is what some Jews and Muslims call him. These apostles called him Christ.
http://biblehub.com/greek/5547.htm
Definition: Anointed One; the Messiah, the Christ.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

While it took a while for Jesus disciples to understand that his first coming would not usher in the Messianic age, they immediately identified him as the promised Prophet and very early on as the Messiah and the Son of God. The Apostles were unwavering on this.

God himself judged the nation as a whole for rejecting their own Messiah and rightly so for Jesus did more than enough to identify himself as such. Those that were loyal to him were promised help to fully understand more by means of the holy spirit, a promise he kept at Pentecost.


JW

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 7 by JehovahsWitness]

JWs seem to have taken a safe, Bibically reasonable position on this matter. That Jesus is not God.

But there is little support in the Hebrew Bible for the New Testament interpretations that he is the Messiah, (where, for instance, is it ever written in the "Old" Testament that the Messiah would need two advents to get the job done?)

There seems to be no Biblical condemnation for those who do not consider a human, even the Messiah, to be God.

By contrast, there is plenty of Biblical condemnation directed at those who would worship false Gods, and there is scant evidence, (even in in the New Testament) that Jesus is True God.

I cannot think of any penalties, however, for believing that Jesus had a pre-existence, or was once an archangel.

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

"If Jesus is not God, as JWs and some other Christians suggest, how serious an idolatry is it to worship him as though he is?"

It's as serious an idolatry as any other idolatry condemned by Jewish monotheism. Yes, while JWs and other Christians suggest, Jesus is not God, but it's helpful to recall that this suggestion is found in the NT itself.

In John 17:3, Jesus explicitly excludes himself from the Godhead, and in other Johannine texts, calls himself a "man" who has "heard" and "obeys" God's word. John's Jesus says that he's been sanctified by the Father - but if Jesus is seen as the Word or the Trinitarian Son, he is already God and cannot be sanctified. Again, in John, Jesus tells Mary that he must ascend to "MY God" and to "YOUR God", thus including him with other human beings who have a God. God cannot have a God. Only human beings can have a God, and Jesus identifies himself as a human being, who like Mary, has a God. Thus, Jesus is not God and must not be worshiped as such.

Moreover, if the NT authors thought that Jesus was God, the NT would be overflowing with prayers addressed to Jesus as to God. It doesn't happen:

1 The NT prayer "Maranatha" is a prayer to Jesus as Messianic Lord, not as God.

2 NT prayer is never addressed to Jesus alone, but only to the Father "through" or "in" Jesus, or "in Jesus's name". Thus NT prayer reveals that the authors did not think of Jesus as ontological God.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

"If Jesus is not God, as JWs and some other Christians suggest, how serious an idolatry is it to worship him as though he is?"

It's as serious an idolatry as any other idolatry condemned by Jewish monotheism. Yes, while JWs and other Christians suggest, Jesus is not God, but it's helpful to recall that this suggestion is found in the NT itself.

In John 17:3, Jesus explicitly excludes himself from the Godhead, and in other Johannine texts, calls himself a "man" who has "heard" and "obeys" God's word. John's Jesus says that he's been sanctified by the Father - but if Jesus is seen as the Word or the Trinitarian Son, he is already God and cannot be sanctified. Again, in John, Jesus tells Mary that he must ascend to "MY God" and to "YOUR God", thus including him with other human beings who have a God. God cannot have a God. Only human beings can have a God, and Jesus identifies himself as a human being, who like Mary, has a God. Thus, Jesus is not God and must not be worshiped as such.

Moreover, if the NT authors thought that Jesus was God, the NT would be overflowing with prayers addressed to Jesus as to God. It doesn't happen:

1 The NT prayer "Maranatha" is a prayer to Jesus as Messianic Lord, not as God.

2 NT prayer is never addressed to Jesus alone, but only to the Father "through" or "in" Jesus, or "in Jesus's name". Thus NT prayer reveals that the authors did not think of Jesus as ontological God.

Bolded my emphasis.

You mean like in the Psalms, which were exclusively addressed to (LORD) YHVH alone?