If Jesus is not God

[Elijah John]

If Jesus is not God, as JWs and some other Christians suggest, how serious an idolatry is it to worship him as though he is?

Are ignorance and indoctrination valid excuses to worship Jesus?

Conversely, if Jesus is God, how sinful is it to consider him a "mere" human, prophet, rabbi etc.?

Does the Bible ever condemn anyone for not acknowledging someone other than the Father as "God"?

Before someone worships Jesus as "God" hadn't one be pretty darn sure that he is, indeed God?

In a variation of Pascal's wager, isn't it more safe and wise to worship the Father alone as "God", since there is really no Biblical downside to doing so?

If one embraces the Father alone as God, what does one have to lose?

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

If Jesus is not God, as JWs and some other Christians suggest, how serious an idolatry is it to worship him as though he is?

From whose perspective?
I doubt many who don't believe him to be God see it as idolatry. Those who do, probably see it as idolatry. Neither probably care much what the other says or thinks.

Are ignorance and indoctrination valid excuses to worship Jesus?

Yes.
You don't know what you don't know. Indoctrination feeds off of ignorance as far as I can see.
One could see God's actions with Adam and Eve in the garden as wanting ignorance.

Does the Bible ever condemn anyone for not acknowledging someone other than the Father as "God"?

Not that I recall but, fortunately, I don't remember everything it says.

Before someone worships Jesus as "God" hadn't one be pretty darn sure that he is, indeed God?

Again, it depends on whom is asked. If anyone worships ANYTHING they'd better be sure if the care about being right and getting whatever reward their thought afterlife has to offer. Likewise, if you don't worship {whatever} you'd better hope you're right if the thing you're not worshiping has an attitude.

If one embraces the Father alone as God, what does one have to lose?

Freedom to be yourself and not have to succumb to the rules and laws put forth but such a creature. But then again, if you don't know you don't have to do it, you're none the wiser: can't experience joy if you haven't experienced sadness as they say.

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 10 by Elijah John]

Yes, the Psalms and/or any other Yahweh-directed prayer, which is the only type of prayer the first Jewish Christians had or needed. Because they were Jews and because their only Bible was the Jewish Bible. So - prayer "through" Jesus, but not "to" Jesus.

[bluethread]

Given the philosophical problems related to putting Adonai in a box, I generally do not get too dogmatic about the relationship between Yeshua and Adonai Elohim. Those in our shul are more rational than charismatic, so our prayers and songs related to Adonai are basically recitations of the Scriptures. Therefore, any differences with regard to how we each view what the Scriptures say are limited to our discussions. So, the issue of "worshiping" Yeshua is limited to emulating His behavior, and honoring His comments on the Tanakh.

Seems like a good and reasonable approach. However, I would ask, do you think the First Commandment puts YHVH, "in a box"?

Just a note, accoring to the Hebrew counting the first of the ten words is “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery."

The second is “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

I do not thin that either put Adonai in a box. In fact, I think that one of the purposes of those verses is to place Adonai firmly outside of the box that had been built by the nations to define the nature of the universe.

[Elijah John]

Given the philosophical problems related to putting Adonai in a box, I generally do not get too dogmatic about the relationship between Yeshua and Adonai Elohim. Those in our shul are more rational than charismatic, so our prayers and songs related to Adonai are basically recitations of the Scriptures. Therefore, any differences with regard to how we each view what the Scriptures say are limited to our discussions. So, the issue of "worshiping" Yeshua is limited to emulating His behavior, and honoring His comments on the Tanakh.

Seems like a good and reasonable approach. However, I would ask, do you think the First Commandment puts YHVH, "in a box"?

Just a note, accoring to the Hebrew counting the first of the ten words is “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery."

The second is “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

I do not thin that either put Adonai in a box. In fact, I think that one of the purposes of those verses is to place Adonai firmly outside of the box that had been built by the nations to define the nature of the universe.

So to make a clear distinction between YHVH and Yahshua would be "putting Adonai in a box"?

The Commandments against idolatry (no matter how we number them) make clear distictions between Adonai and His Creation. It is an important question, the nature of Jesus in relation to Jehovah. And I do not see how answering it puts YHVH "in a box".

Unless, or course, you are comfortable with blurred lines on this matter. According to the Law and the Prophets, YHVH is not. How many prophetic utterances are admonishments against idolatry? Rhetorical question.

If indeed Yahshua is not God, treating him as such is, in fact, idolatry, don't you think?

And if you think Yahshua IS God, or may be God, what is your basis for thinking so? I don't see any outside of Church, Trinitarian dogma, do you?

I think your Shul is wise to address all worship to the Father alone, glad to hear it.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Excellent post, Elijah John. It is absolutely mandatory that we all understand exactly who God is. If He is Jehovah, then it would be a lesson in futility to worship anyone or anything else. The Bible says that He is the "only true God" and "the Most High." Jesus himself insisted that he was God's Son.

I think it causes Jesus pain to see practically a whole world placing himself on a pedestal as high, or higher, than God Himself. He, IMHO, and according to the Scriptures, does not want to be worshiped as God Almighty.


.

[Eloi]

To have an idea of how serious this is, we can compare with an account recorded on the Scriptures.

When Israel went through the desert out of Egypt, on one occasion Jehovah commanded to build a copper snake and put it on a stake so that the Israelites would get rid of the poisonous effect of the snake bites they were receiving as punishment for their constant complaints ... Later, the Israelites took that snake to a place in the promised land and began to worship it improperly.

Num. 21:4 As they continued their journey from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea in order to go around the land of Eʹdom, the people became weary of the journey. 5 And the people kept speaking against God and Moses, saying: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no food and no water, and we have come to hate this contemptible bread.� 6 So Jehovah sent poisonous serpents among the people, and they kept biting the people, so that many Israelites died. 7 So the people came to Moses and said: “We have sinned by speaking against Jehovah and against you. Intercede with Jehovah so that he may remove the serpents from us.� And Moses interceded on behalf of the people. 8 Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Make a replica of a poisonous snake and put it on a pole. Then when anyone has been bitten, he will have to look at it in order to keep alive.� 9 Moses at once made a serpent of copper and put it on the pole, and whenever a serpent had bitten a man and he looked at the copper serpent, he survived.

More than 700 years later, Hezekiah pulverized it during his reign, because what was supposed to be for salvation once, had become an object of idolatry.

2King. 18:1 In the third year of Ho·sheʹa the son of Eʹlah the king of Israel, Hez·e·kiʹah the son of King Aʹhaz of Judah became king. 2 He was 25 years old when he became king, and he reigned for 29 years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Aʹbi the daughter of Zech·a·riʹah. 3 He kept doing what was right in Jehovah’s eyes, just as David his forefather had done. 4 He was the one who removed the high places, smashed the sacred pillars, and cut down the sacred pole. He also crushed the copper serpent that Moses had made; for down to that time the people of Israel had been making sacrificial smoke to it and it used to be called the copper serpent-idol. 5 He trusted in Jehovah the God of Israel; there was no one like him among all the kings of Judah after him nor among those prior to him. 6 He held fast to Jehovah. He did not turn away from following him; he continued to keep the commandments that Jehovah had given to Moses. 7 And Jehovah was with him. Wherever he went, he acted wisely. He rebelled against the king of As·syrʹi·a and refused to serve him. 8 He also defeated the Phi·lisʹtines clear to Gazʹa and its territories, from watchtower to fortified city.

That snake meant Jesus Christ as the mean of salvation by Jehovah, as Jesus said:

John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.

And it is the same thing that has happened today with the idolaters of their christ: they have forgotten who provides the means of salvation, about whom Jesus himself was preaching all the time. We can check and see how many times Jesus mentioned the word FATHER and read those pssages with special attention.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 16 by Eloi]

Excellent point, Eloi. Copper snake => Jesus Christ

The people idolized the copper snake, forgetting about Jehovah their God, and now the people idolize Jesus Christ, forgetting about Almighty God (who is the Source of everything good, and even the Source of the power that Jesus has been given).

[brianbbs67]

Denying God as the one who forgives is a great problem with today's church. Jesus was able to forgive sins because he had that authority given to him. Not because he could do it by himself. If one believes that, that is true blasphemy.

Remember God is one, Jesus can only do as God instructed.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

If Jesus is not divine, and supposing the Old and New Testaments to be inspired by the power that made the universe, I think God would understand why Christians got the idea that Jesus was divine.

If Jesus is divine, he himself declared that blasphemies against him would be forgiven. He seemed to understand that he was not expected.

[Athetotheist]

To Jews, the worship of any human being as God is idolatrous and incurs separation from God in the next life, so they consider it very serious. As Pascal's wager relates to the worship of Jesus as God, therefore, it doesn't work for Jews. And if it doesn't work for everyone, it doesn't work for anyone.

As has been pointed out, John's Jesus declares to Mary Magdalene that he is ascending "to my God and to your God". But later in the book of John, we find this:

Next he said to Thomas: "Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing." In answer Thomas said to him: "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him: "Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe." (Jn. 20:27-29)

If it had been the author's position that Jesus was not God, he would surely have had Jesus rebut Thomas's proclamation that he was God. This, as I see it, makes the JW position more difficult to maintain, especially since the text above is taken directly from a New World translation published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.