Is your belief in God, entirely dependent upon

[Elijah John]

Is your belief in God entirely dependent upon your belief that Jesus himself is God, the 2nd person of the Trinity?

If the arguments of skeptics here on these boards, or the arguments of Historical Jesus Scholars such as Bart Ehrmann or John Dominic Crossan, or even the arguments of Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims or Jews suddenly clicked in your mind, with a light-bulb-"aha" realization that Jesus is not God, never claimed to be God, and none of his contemporaries every called him "God", what would you do?

Would you retain your general belief in God, as Father? Would you join another religion such as Islam or Judaism? Would you attempt to salvage what you can of Chrisitanity in a unitarian (small "u" not necessarily UU) fashion?

Or would that discovery cause you to become an atheist or an agnostic?

[JehovahsWitness]

2 PETER 1:1 and ...TITUS 2:13

2 Peter 1:1 . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ ... St. Paul uses the same phrase in Titus 2:13 as well.

While some bible translations render the verses in a way that suggests they refer to one individual, the CATHOLIC bibles below clarify matters by rendering the verses as follows...

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NEW AMERICAN BIBLE (REVISED)
..through knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. - 2 Peter 1:1

DOUAY-RHEIMS 
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ  -Titus 2:13

The original Greek of 2 Peter 1:1

δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆ�ος Ἰησοῦ Χ�ιστοῦ

literally reads ...

... of the GOD (of us) and of Saviour Jesus Christ

..leading some to conclude that the writer is designating Jesus as God but Moulton's Grammar of New Testament Greek explains that where there are several nouns connected by "kai" (and) "The art[icle] may be carried over from the first noun to the other(s)" - p. 181, Vol. 3, 1963. Indeed this is the case in many similar constructions. We do a similar thing in English when we refer to "King and country"; it is understood, even without saying King and the country that the country is not the king.

CONCLUSION It is grammatically dubious to say the least to insist that Peter and Paul (the writer of Titus) were suggesting Jesus was God in the above passages. Two indi visuals are spoken of only one of which is being revered to as God.

Further Reading
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... -rule.html

Sharps Rule
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... ts-on.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -rule.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -some.html

[JehovahsWitness]

JOHN 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God - John 1:1 NABRE

Many English readers are not aware that in the original Greek there is a difference between the first and the second mention of God.

Careful translators however recognize that the first mention of God (ho theos) the writer adds the definite article, which is how the wrter of John systematically denotes the person of ALMIGHTY GOD, while in the second part of John 1: 1 (speaking about The Word) the grammatical construction denotes not the identity but a quality about someone. [â—‡] Several trinitarian scholars (C.H. Dodd, W.E. Vine, Murray J. Harris, William Barclay, and Robert Young) admit that John 1:1c can literally be translated with an indefinite article to read "and the word was a god".

One might think of the famous Oscar Wilde play "THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING EARNEST" which is a play on words of the adjective "earnest," meaning honest or sincere, and the German boy's name "Ernest". Although in English the two words are pronounced the same, Ernest identifies the individual while "earnst" tells us something about his character or behaviour. So the sentence Ernest was earnest may sound the same but the two words have completely different functions

In a similar way "...the word was GOD" acts like an adjective telling us, not who the word is but what he is like. The Catholic NABRE bible recognises this fact, admitting that the {quote}

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 NABRE

"[The] lack of a definite article with “God� [In John 1:1 c]  signifies predication rather than identification" { end quote}.  

source: http://www.usccb.org/bible/john#51001001-2

Further, the footnote to John 1:1 in the Catholic NABRE states, regarding the Word being "with God God" that ...

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Footnote NABRE

 " the Greek preposition [with] here connotes communication with another"

Since the word "another" means 'an additional', and since there is only one God, taken to its natural conclusion the Catholic Bishops here recognize that God was communicating with "another" individual who could not have been God (since there can be no such thing as an additional - "another"- Almighty God).





CONCLUSION Given the above, John’s statement can be understood to mean that the Word or Logos was “a god� or “divine� or “godlike� rather than he was Almighty God; it was expressing a certain quality about the Word, or Logos,rather than identifying him as Almighty God himself.


JW



FURTHER READING Commentaries
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... gress.html
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.fr/ ... er_21.html


For more information on the grammatical construction of John 1:1 see the FOOTNOTES below
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 680#935680

[JehovahsWitness]

John 1:1 Cont./ from post #92


FOOTNOTES

"Origen, [arguably ] the most knowledgeable of the early Christian Greek-speaking scholars, states "...there was the Logos with the article and the Logos without the article, corresponding to God absolutely and a god. -"Origen's Commentary on John," Book I, ch. 42 - Bk II, ch.3.

[â—‡] Greek scholar Philip B. Harner did an extensive study of anarthrous predicate nouns which was published in the Journal of Biblical Literature (March 1973)."In all of these cases the English reader might not understand exactly what John was trying to express. Perhaps the clause could be translated, "the Word had the same nature as God." - Philip B. Harner, "Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns Mark 15:39 and John 1:1" (Journal of Biblical Literature, March 1973), 92:75-87.

[* ]In the Greek text there are many cases of a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb, such as in Mr 6:49; 11:32; Joh 4:19; 6:70; 8:44; 9:17; 10:1, 13, 33; 12:6. In these places translators insert the indefinite article “a� before the predicate noun in order to bring out the quality or characteristic of the subject. Since the indefinite article is inserted before the predicate noun in such texts, with equal justification the indefinite article “a� is inserted before the anarthrous θεός in the predicate of John 1:1 to make it read “a god.�


RELATED POSTS


How do various translations render John 1:1?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 695#867695

Are there any additional eferences favouring alternative renditions
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 721#930721



WORD STUDIES:


Is it ever justifiable to add an "a" [an indefinite article] to a scripture when the word doesn't appear in the original Greeek text?

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 563#821563
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 859#824859
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... er_21.html

What can be said about the singular anarthrous (without the article) Greek nominative count noun?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 676#867676

How should the English reflect unmodified theos that appears in the greek text without the article?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 585#849585

What can we understand from the word ending theos?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 444#924444

Is it true that one cannot use an indefinite article with a predicate nominative in Greek?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 778#822778
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 579#822579

How do other English translations render predicate nouns on other passages?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 329#924329

Does "Colwell's Rule" shed light on how John1:1 should properly be translated?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 838#822838
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/metzgercolwell.htm
http://fosterheologicalreflections.blog ... n-11c.html



FURTHER READING
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/john1files.htm
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... 11c-a.html
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... notes.html
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... endix.html

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

JehovahsWitness,

By whose authority do the Jehovah Witnesses act? This is a legitimate question. Would you please answer? Do you believe that the teachings in the Watchtower writings are infallible? If not does that mean you admit they can be wrong? So, how do you know what they are saying is true/right? How are differences or disagreements handled within the JW’s? Who has the ultimate say?

[JehovahsWitness]

WORSHIP

Worship can only be rightly applied to God, as we know from Exodus 34:14 and Deuteronomy 8:19. Yet Jesus accepted worship of Himself on many occasions (e.g., Mt 14:33; 28:9) .... In Revelation 5:8, 12-13 and Colossians 2:6-7, we find that Jesus is worshiped in every way that the Bible specifically describes worship of God the Father, with all the same words used (see: Rev 4:9-11, 5:13; 7:11-12, and Rom 11:33).

The word in question in the scriptures above is the Greek word PROSKYNEO. [* ] Many bible readers are not aware that their English translations render the same Greek word differently depending on who is being addressed.


Trinitarian W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:

“PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26.�

Thus the Catholic Bible NAB renders this word as follows...

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NABRE 


and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him HOMAGE. -  Matthew 2:11

CAPs MINE

HOMAGE or OBEISANCE is defined as "deep respect and often praise shown for a person or god. It is this "homage" that some Catholics pay to their religious leaders when they bow down, kneel before or kiss their hands, rings or feet. HOMAGE may be rendered to a human but worship in the sense of the religious or ceremonial adoration owed exclusively to Almighty God may not.

[*] The Hebrew equivalent to proskuneo is often Shachah

CONCLUSION: Throughout Jesus life, individuals and groups paid "homage" or did "obeisance" to him, bowing down ("pros·ky·ne′o") before him. While Jesus rightly accepted acts of obeisance, he did not however accept adoration as Almighty God that he himself said was owed exclusively to YHWH (see Luke 4:10)

JW


RELATED POSTS


How should pros·ky·ne′o" be translated?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 151#867151

Should both JEHOVAH and the Son Jesus be worshipped? Rev 5:13
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 020#864020

Luke 24:52 "They worshipped him and returned to Jerusalem" (tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 375#864375

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

JehovahsWitness,

If you don’t want to answer my questions, that is your choice, but I’m not sure why it would matter to me Jehovah Witness interpretation if their authority cannot be documented nor is even believed to exist by you yourself. If you do not believe JW cannot err in her teachings on matters of faith and morals then why accept/believe her interpretation?

I could post the Mormon interpretation of all the passages we are discussing and they would be different than both of ours. I could post Lutheran interpretation and they would be different. I could post the interpretation of Joe who lives down the street, etc. And they would all have a different take. Who is right?

[JehovahsWitness]

I've written quite a number of responses to your post #23 , so for easy reference I will INDEX the posts in biblical (scrptural) order.




TRINITY "PROOF" TEXTS

ISAIAH 43:11 "besides me there is no savior"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 303#912303
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 753#890753

MATTHEW 2:11 [PROSKYNEO] "they ... did him homage"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 727#935727

JOHN

• JOHN 1:1 The word was God
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 672#935672
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 680#935680
  
  JOHN 1:1 The word was "divine"
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 896#870896
  
  JOHN 5:22 Jesus JUDGES
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 079#935079
  
  JOHN 5:23 "as they honour the Father"
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 409#935409
  
  JOHN 10: 30 "I and the Father are one"
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 476#935476
  
  JOHN 10: 33 "you, being a man, make yourself God"
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 519#935519
  
  JOHN 20: 28 "my Lord and my God"
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 799#917799

EPHESIANS 1:22-23 "head over all things"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 039#935039

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 "he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 798#872798

PHILIPPIANS 3:10-11 "every knee shall bend"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 358#935358

PHILIPPIANS 3:20 "the power [of Christ]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 916#934916

COLOSSIANS

• COLOSSIANS 1:15 Firstborn of Creation
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 885#934885
  
  COLOSSIANS 1:15 "firstborn of all creation"" (prototokos)
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 218#867218
  
  COLOSSIANS 1:16 "all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 193#925193
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 901#934901
  
  COLOSSIANS 1:17 "he is before all, and by him all things consist"
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 886#934886
  
  COLOSSIANS 1:19 "the fullness dwells in [Jesus]"
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 881#934881
  
  COLOSSIANS 2:3 "Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom"
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 988#934988
  
  COLOSSIANS 2:9 "the fullness deals in [Jesus]
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 881#934881
  
  COLOSSIANS 3:11 "Christ is all and in all"
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 073#935073

TITUS 2:13 [ 2 PETER 1:1 ] "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ "
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 634#935634


HEBREWS 1:3 The brightness of his glory
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 910#934910

HEBREWS 1:8 "God is thy throne"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 602#935602

2 PETER 1:1 [TITUS 2:13 ] "God and of Jesus our Lord"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 634#935634


REVELATION 7:17 "the heart of the throne"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 282#935282

REVELATION 22:1 "the throne of God and of the Lamb "
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 235#935235

REVELATION 22:3 "his servants will worship him"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 244#935244

FURTHER READING

Full scripture index
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... index.html

Trinity "proof" texts debunked
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/trinity_prooftexts.htm

RELATED POSTS

Scriptural reasons to conclude Jesus is not Almighty God
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 572#751572

Did early Christians believe in the trinity?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 140#858140

Was Jesus the YHWH of the "Old Testament"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 696#863696

[polonius]

Jewish Answers.org

“Additionally, the concept that God would send a savior that is both human and divine comes straight out of pagan tradition. Judaism has never had this concept, whereas the Greek and Roman religions have had concepts such as these since long before Jesus came on the scene.

There is no precedent or logical reason to understand that this scripture is talking about the messiah being divine.

Best wishes,
Rabbi Azriel Schreiber�

RESPONSE:

The Messiah was to be a heroic man, the biological son of both David and Solomon both of whom were human, not divine. That was a later Christian idea about 85 AD. It resulted in the Christians being anathematized and exclude from the Jewish synagogues.

See: the Twelph Benediction

[Peds nurse]

From the very beginning of the NT, Jesus was set apart as being more than a man.

He was special in that he was carrying a special message.

Hello Mr. Marco!!

He was the special message.

He was conceived by a virgin, and the angels of the Lord verified this. People came from afar to pay homage to the King, even as an infant or small child. King Herod got wind of this, and even had boys under 2 murdered.

These events are torn from an unknown childhood. We have next to no details of young Jesus, and yet we have the reported speeches of angels to anonymous shepherds and to Mary herself. The Census that sent Mary on her ill-advised journey, during preganancy, never was or at least did not require movement of people, something the Romans would have disliked rather than required. The Massacre of the Innocents like the resurrection of the holy men is added fiction for effect. I like the story of humble straw and farm animals and the baby sleeping peacefully while potentates bring presents but it is just nice poetry, like the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam.

First, I wonder why I spell Angels wrong? Sorry for my blunder!

I would agree that the Bible gives very little insight to the childhood of Jesus. My entire point was that if God sent the angels to Mary, the Shepherds, the wise men who were told to go another route so that they would not have to deal with King Herod, and Joseph himself, then is it not likely that Jesus was more than a man? If we are using the Bible to defend that Jesus is not God, then can we not use the Bible to defend that He is of God?

God himself said, "this is my son with whom I am well pleased."

Even if we accept this remarkable pronouncement from God, it indicates favouritism not actual paternity.

Did God call anyone else His son in that whom He is well pleased? How do you know He is referring to Jesus being less that His son? I do appreciate the poetic reference, but there is not anyone in the Bible that God gave such authority to. He refers to people as being His Sons and Israel, but He was clearly using plural form.

There has been no other man in the entire Bible who claimed to be one with God, and had the very blessing of God himself upon Him.

Jesus claimed that he and the father are one - meaning of course that he speaks the wishes of the Father and never contradicts God's word. It's a common way of speaking about consensus. A few of the prophets seem to have been favoured by God in special ways, even to the extent that they could bargain with him.

Jesus spoke with authority! He said that all authority had been given to Him on heaven as well as earth. His authority is eternal. All things have been handed to Jesus...everything is His as it is God's. Every knee will bow to His authority. This sounds more than a poetic reference.

Several times in Isaiah, God says that He will not share His glory with another, but yet He seems to encourage our relationship with Jesus.

You have just shot down your earlier arguments, nursie. That will need a big bandage. God says he won't and you say he did! Your opposition maintains that God was consistent in what he said and there is but one of him; you are saying he - er - told a little fib. How likely is that? If that's what is needed to deify Jesus, Jesus surely must stay human.

Not so fast...He will not share His glory with another, meaning that Jesus and God are cut from the same cloth. They are one in the same.

It's sad to find myself in opposition to somebody who is such a great ambassador for beliefs that I once shared. Go well, nurse!

Don't feel sad my sweet friend! Perhaps you left God, but maybe He did not leave you! Anyway, I find it a HUGE blessing that I have the great opportunity to share thoughts with someone of your caliber. If my purpose was to only convince you to believe in the God whom I adore, then perhaps I would be disappointed. But my purpose is to learn, to love, and to share, and I am quite pleased with our interactions. Thank you for all your beautiful words that encourage me to dig deeper into my faith.

[Peds nurse]

Pds Nurse posted:

From the very beginning of the NT, Jesus was set apart as being more than a man. He was conceived by a virgin, and the angles of the Lord verified this. People came from afar to pay homage to the King, even as an infant or small child. King Herod got wind of this, and even had boys under 2 murdered. John, testified to the significance of Jesus being the Holy one. God himself said, "this is my son with whom I am well pleased." There has been no other man in the entire Bible who claimed to be one with God, and had the very blessing of God himself upon Him. Several times in Isaiah, God says that He will not share His glory with another, but yet He seems to encourage our relationship with Jesus.

(1) This story is found in the nativity narratives. Any reason to believe it is other than just a story?

It is a story that the entire New Testament is built upon. If one does not give authority to Jesus as being born of divinity, then what is it's purpose of it?

(2)Did Jesus ever specifically say that he was divine himself?

I copied this because it made sense to me...I can't say it better.

"The gospel of John, which presents Jesus Christ in His deity, is sometimes called the "I AM" book. Over and over again in the book of John, Jesus said, "I AM." To the learned Jew this phrase "I AM" was very significant. It was a claim by Jesus that He is God. Why? In the Old Testament when God called Moses to lead the nation of Israel out of Egypt, He told Moses to tell the nation that "I AM" has sent you (Exodus 3:13-15). "I AM" is the covenant God of Israel, Jehovah! Therefore, the great "I AM" is the designation for God to the nation of Israel and Jesus' statement "I AM" is a clear indication that He was saying, "I AM God."

(3)Did Jesus ever say that God was greater than he? (That is he was not equal to God).

Once again, for lack of time and eloquence on my part, I give you this.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blog ... lso-equal/